A while back, I overheard a discussion between a couple of friends who were talking about how wonderful it was to have the Ten Commandments as a basis for living, because it reminds them that there are some things that are just not acceptable behavior. One of them went on to express sympathy for people who don't have the Bible to guide them, and that's when I had to open my mouth (you didn't think I was just going to sit there, did you?).
This led to a very interesting -- and very civil -- conversation about what constitutes moral behavior, and how one determines it for oneself. The main question that was asked of me was, if Pagans don't have a central codified set of guidelines, then how do we know what is right behavior and what is not?
In general, there is often an assumption that just because we don't have a Big List O' Rules, that clearly we're incapable of deciding for ourselves what actions are good and which are not. I find this an odd concept, because my parents -- who are agnostic -- managed to raise two reasonably well-adjusted children to adulthood, all without benefit of the guidance of the Bible.
I pointed out that, just like anyone else, we Pagans determine our actions by a variety of things -- experience, reasoning, empathy, and rational thought. To assume that people only behave lawfully because the rules say they have to is to, quite frankly, dumb down all of humanity. Anyway, here's a bit more on the subject: How Do Pagans Know What's Right and Wrong?
I'd like to hear your opinions on this - what do you think? Do you actually need a rule to tell you not to steal or kill, or is it something you know for other reasons?
Follow Pagan/Wiccan on Twitter or Join Me On Facebook.
This led to a very interesting -- and very civil -- conversation about what constitutes moral behavior, and how one determines it for oneself. The main question that was asked of me was, if Pagans don't have a central codified set of guidelines, then how do we know what is right behavior and what is not?
In general, there is often an assumption that just because we don't have a Big List O' Rules, that clearly we're incapable of deciding for ourselves what actions are good and which are not. I find this an odd concept, because my parents -- who are agnostic -- managed to raise two reasonably well-adjusted children to adulthood, all without benefit of the guidance of the Bible.
I pointed out that, just like anyone else, we Pagans determine our actions by a variety of things -- experience, reasoning, empathy, and rational thought. To assume that people only behave lawfully because the rules say they have to is to, quite frankly, dumb down all of humanity. Anyway, here's a bit more on the subject: How Do Pagans Know What's Right and Wrong?
I'd like to hear your opinions on this - what do you think? Do you actually need a rule to tell you not to steal or kill, or is it something you know for other reasons?
Follow Pagan/Wiccan on Twitter or Join Me On Facebook.
I too have had issues with the ethical/moral questions -especially from people with different religious backgrounds. I agree that people don’t really need a set of rules to follow in order to be a good moral person. Mostly, this comes from your parents early on and your life experiences as you grow older.
Just as @Spikey points out above, the ten commandments was put into use by a culture that kept slaves. And we all know that the words in the bible have been used to justify murder. But then, some witchcraft before the burning times was used very negatively, and it wasn’t considered black magic at all – it was just magic.
So, it all comes down to each person and how they live their lives, regardless of religion or rules.
You make a good point. There isn’t one strict set that all Pagans adhere to, but there are general commonalities.
I think it’s worth pointing out, though I think you may have intuited this already, that the three virtues you listed are not necessarily virtues. Any of them taken to the extreme becomes a vice. I’ll give examples:
Tolerance in balance is a virtue, and leads to harmony.
But Tolerance in the extreme leads to allowing hate to fester (after all it’s just someone’s point of view and we have to respect and tolerate that). It also leads to bullying, and other justices, because they are “tolerated”.
Selflessness in balance leads to good places – people around you get what they need, and return the favor in turn. People cooperate, good works get done.
Selflessness in the extreme leads to being a doormat, getting used, burning out, selling out, etc.
Courage in balance allows us to take the right action, even if it’s scary.
Courage in the extreme is foolhardy. It leads to taking unnecessary risks, not only to one’s self, but to others. The “brave” path is not always the wise path.
I would dare say that Pagans overwhelmingly believe that Balance is a virtue. (There may be some who disagree.) (Balance in the extreme may be in interesting philosophical point to explore.)
Oops, I made a typo. That should read ‘It leads to bullying, and other injustices, because they are “tolerated”.’
Alas, I am only human
I think its interesting that some people believe that only the Bible is capable of providing a road map to moral living. To say such discounts all of the cultures both ancient and present that got along just fine without it. The simple fact is that for a large group of individuals to work and live together in a symbiotic relationship (aka. a culture/society) then a set of laws and social morrays must be developed and upheld. Otherwise the social group falls apart. And some of the nearly universal rules and laws are…Dont kill, dont steal, dont lie, dont sleep with someone’s partner…
70 % or so of the Ten Commandments are about worshiping the Hebrew god. There is actually very little about morality and it is all at the end. I dont know about you but when I make a list, I like to put the most important stuff first. Simply put, any functioning society will come up with nearly the same general laws, or face destruction. And since in our agrarian society large groups are more sucessful than small groups there is a great incentive for people to adopt this system.
My response to the Ten Commandments thing has always been: “The Ten Commandments don’t tell anything you shouldn’t have already known.” Ves heill!
Well gee, the Bible wasn’t always around. What did the Hebrews do before the commandments came down from the Mount? Did they kill without thought? did they steal regularly? [If it wasn't against the laws of a god, would it still have been illegal?]
I’ve never understood how any moral system concrete enough to be written down or otherwise stated outright could ever be complete in and of itself.
There’s no way to account for every possible situation and exception (it would take much longer than a lifetime to even speak them all, let alone put them into practice), so if it’s possible to extrapolate, adjust, and conform a basic foundation to cover all possible situations (which requires one to make interpretations and judgments on one’s own), then why would it not be possible to develop a morality from personal values rather than religious ones?
And even if a religious system did somehow pin down the “correct” moral behavior for every single potentiality, if you’re simply following the rules without thinking about the why of them, are you really behaving “morally” or are you simply acquiescing to some authority figure? How does something become right or wrong simply because a particular being says so? Such is a fundamentally different way of thinking from my own, and one that has always been fairly impossible for me to wrap my brain around. I’m sure those people who think that way (including many people whom I love dearly) feel the same about me and the way I think, however.
None of this is meant as an argument that those who rely on their religion for their morality are wrong to do so, I just mean to point out that that way of thinking about morality is as baffling to me as my own might be to those who hold those views on morality, making absolutist statements about how someone can or can’t gain a moral code somewhat absurd, or at the very least fruitless.
(Continued)
@Redbad: There’s actually quite a lot in the 10 Commandments that I disagree with. The first five in their entirety, for starters. The last five I find to be overly simplistic and absolutist. and I would argue there are situations where each of them isn’t clearly wrong.
Well, with the possible exception of adultery, I suppose, depending on the definition being used. I don’t see extramarital sex (the definition given by Merriam-Webster) as automatically wrong, because some married couples aren’t monogamous, but if adultery is defined as extramarital sex when such activities fall outside of the agreed upon parameters of the relationship, then that’s a different story (though still probably not worthy of a spot in my top ten morality violations).
@Rev. Zak Zennii Very well said.
Don’t kill (other people), steal, lie and cheat. Those are basic rules for any society, even animal societies have developed them naturally.
I consider our lists of rules and such,though short,very strong,it covers a lot of ground!The wiccan rede spells it out for you pretty good,and I feel that if we cannot follow the wiccan rede if we are wiccan,then we should not call ourselves wiccan,and so as far as christiananity goes,they have the ten commandments,Right? and some follow all ten,but there are those that dont!Does it make tghem a non christian if they don’t!I don’t think so because there would be a whole lot less christians if they all did!No put down!,I follow the rede!Without any problems what soever!