Court Says Monument Endorses Religion
Wednesday June 10, 2009
A federal appeals court has handed down a ruling that a monument displaying the Ten Commandments outside a courthouse "has the primary effect of endorsing religion." The monument is at the Haskell County Courthouse in Oklahoma. Want to hear something really nice? After the ruling, County Commissioner Mitch Worsham said, "Whoever was the judge in this, I feel sorry for him on Judgment Day." And for even more entertainment, read the comments at the bottom, in which a number of readers blame non-Christians for all the problems in America.
To read the court's entire opinion, you can go to Green v. Haskell County Commissioners.
Meanwhile, in nearby Poteau, plans for a Ten Commandments monument on the LeFlore County Courthouse lawn were scrapped after the Haskell County ruling was announced.
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To read the court's entire opinion, you can go to Green v. Haskell County Commissioners.
Meanwhile, in nearby Poteau, plans for a Ten Commandments monument on the LeFlore County Courthouse lawn were scrapped after the Haskell County ruling was announced.
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Comments
Hooray! Score one for the Establishment Clause!
Well there are less non-christian bashings than I expected.
All I can say is I hope it stands.
“the anti-christ in the white house” LMAO! as the old saying goes - be careful what you wish for - you just might get it.
What ever happened to the freedom of religion I understand both sides of the argument and understand this is just politics run riot but in truth both sould never mix
Some people? I’m a Christian/Pagan now! Why are they making such a big deal over a statue or monument! Get the Judges to force the American Government to explain 911. I’m still waiting to see the so called “plane” that hit the pentigon???? Only “U” know whats in your heart and what your beliefs are! Who needs a freaking statue or a cross around 1’s neck, lol… I’m a Canadian “still waiting for an explaination MR.BUSH… Our soldiers are still coming home in body bags. Due to your WAR on Weapon’s of mass destuction, and Terrorism… Must be nice sitting in a safe comfy home… While our troops are dying! “WANT THE TRUTH EVERYONE” Go to Zeitgeist.com (I WANT ANSWERS) Who cares about a statue in the good ole’ U.S.of A.
Check out my “kid” “family” friendly website.
“Keep Safe All”
Grimmm
I say let them put up the statues. As long as it isn’t a statue of a burning witch, I refuse to take offense at it. Religious freedom is for everybody! As long as nobody is marched at gun point to this statue and forced to stare at it, what harm can it do. And other than the first 3 of the ten commandments, I’m pretty much OK with them. Guide lines and rules that require people to behave in a civil manner just don’t upset me as much as some other things that we have to put up with on a daily basis. It’s just like a lot of other things that people get up in arms over. If it bothers you, don’t look at it. The Southern Baptists and the State Lottery for example… If you think it’s wrong, don’t participate. I say let them have there statue and post their commandments. Ed
I love how people belive that 20% of the nation can be responsible for everything wrong in America. Maybe they should look at the numbers and wonder how things are so screwed up within a nation that’s 80% Christian. “Things that make you go hmmmm.”
I will agree with James’ comment what happened to the freedom of religion???? The ten commandments on the lawn of a court house wasn’t hurting anyone at all in my eyes. Besides most of our laws are based in part of some of the ten commandments. “Thou shall not commit murder”
I agree with the court, sort of. I would not see anything wrong with one religion having a monument on the courthouse lawn, if everyone else could have one also. As long as people would throw fits about a pentacle–or for that matter a Star of David or a statue of Buddha–it isn’t fair for the Christians to have their Ten Commandments. The courthouse has to stand for all Americans, not just some of us.
sounds like there are 3 or 4 christians in here trying to masquerade as Pagans to defend those statues.
To Ed and Kelly come on fess up, what is your true intent for being in here?
Would the two of you be so understanding if there was a statue of the Wiccen Rede next to the court house?
I have read all the comments and for me , it’s up to the indiviual. I am proud to be Wiccan, just as a Christian is proud to be a Christian . We should love everyone, not for their beliefs but for the person they are. We have come along way over the years. We won the case with the Veterans Administration as far as grave markers , we won in a case against the Dept. of the Army as far as worship at Fort Hood in Texas . Let them have there statue , perhaps one day , we can see the the Rede side by side and we can all live in peace , and harmony .
I have two arguments:
First~Yhwh is NOT the Lord my God, I put many other gods before him, I rarely use his name but when it is it’s probably in vain!
That, in a nutshell, is why I don’t support Ten Commandments Monuments. If the argument it that we should have monuments to the cultural history of law then why not a monument to the Code of Hamurabi?
Second~ Any monument on any land requires upkeep (weeding around, cleaning and repair, graffiti removal etc.) Workers & gardeners are paid to do this work, supplies need to be bought. For monuments on public property these costs are paid for by the taxpayers. I don’t want any of my taxes used to upkeep any monument that directly opposes the religion I practice.
well i was wondering when this was going to happen again, i know a few years back this same thing happen to our monument of the ten commandments in Elkhart County, Elkhart, Indiana, after the ruling, the Mayor’s office decided to move the monument so as to keep the Jewish Community from bring another lawsuit, they moved it to another location away from the main business district, yet still they complained about it being in public view; i mean really come on, talk about whining after winning
Well Greenman all i can say is, i do not judge others for their choice in religion…. and yes before i became a wicca follower, i myself was forced to follow in my family’s religious foot steps, Catholics, i felt out of place, an out cast, now i found my home, but i do not pick at people who do not follow my gods and goddess, i allow them to believe in what they believe in as long as they allow me to do so, also; if you live in that county you pay taxes and those taxes pay for that monument, if not you do not; your taxes goes to the county you live in, the Federal taxes we pay do not pay for county monuments
“Greenman says:
I have two arguments:
First~Yhwh is NOT the Lord my God, I put many other gods before him, I rarely use his name but when it is it’s probably in vain!
That, in a nutshell, is why I don’t support Ten Commandments Monuments. If the argument it that we should have monuments to the cultural history of law then why not a monument to the Code of Hamurabi?
Second~ Any monument on any land requires upkeep (weeding around, cleaning and repair, graffiti removal etc.) Workers & gardeners are paid to do this work, supplies need to be bought. For monuments on public property these costs are paid for by the taxpayers. I don’t want any of my taxes used to upkeep any monument that directly opposes the religion I practice.”
The fact of the matter is, while I support any form of religious freedom, the same courtesy would not be applied if the situation were different. If a Pagan symbol were to be put up, the Christians would pitch a fit about it. Bottom line, end of story.
Shanon I totally agree with. There are several christians in here as well as psuedo pagans who would not be singing the tune of let them have their mounument if the statue had anything Pagan on it. Of course they are safe with the knowledge that Pagans would never be allowed the same platform to erect anything at all.
Over all the Ten Commandments are pretty tame. yet I think what if “they” found this monument ten thousand years later at a dig. This is very small part American religion not government. In fact America doesn’t have a religion.
Well, I live in Oklahoma. I have been through Stigler on a few occasions. While I have never really cared about people putting monuments up that support one religion over another, the more I see things like this the more it aggrivates me.
When you place a monument up in a public place like that, you are declaring that the citizens of that city/county are in agreement with what it says. You have essentially taken other peoples views and stomped them in the dirt. Did you go home to home and have people sign a petition saying that they would like to see a monument put up of the Ten Commandments?
While many of you may think that this is a stupid question and wonder why would someone go to that much trouble, well, it’s obvious here that all the time and money and effort that went into making and displaying the monument was a waste. Now they can’t even put it up because it offended someone in the community and if they would have went house to house with a petition they would have known that there were some in the community that did’t feel like it represented them and their beliefs.
Down the raod from me there is a small church that has a sign prominently displayed in their window “Miami is a proud Chrisian community”. Every time I drive by it it aggrivates me…they have no idea how many Pagans are in this town…how can they speak for everyone that lives here? THAT is why I disagree with the monument
It is a shame that the country has come to this (lawsuits) but you know what? I am tired of people assuming I am Christian and then thay have the gaul to think it’s okay to tell other people I am when I am not. No one has the right to speak in my stead but me and anyone I see fit to appoint.
*sigh* Okay I’m finished….LOL
Athena
Religious freedom in this country means just that…the freedom to practice whatever religion YOU want. It is for YOU only and not to jam down anyone else’s throats.
This does not mean we are a Christian country. We are a country that has many religions.
As far as the Ten Comandment monument: no it is not hurting anyone, yet hurting everyone. Your religion cannot dominate all others, and note how much chaos would be created if ALL religions were allowed to erect a monument in the city/county square?
Be courteous and considerate of others feelings and beliefs.
From time to time I feel compelled to bring this up. Thomas Jefferson was very particular about not having religion and government mix. For instance, he said, “Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.” Cities and states tend to dilute the first ammendment regularly, which is a shame, because a government that insists on being blind to religion is ultimately the only safety religion posesses.
Our founding fathers, decided there should be a separation of church and state, for good reasons. Why must we continue to put up such displays on “Court” house lawns? Why not put them in front of churches? (Maybe intolerance by christians of any religion or belief but their own) The Ten Commandments are good rules to follow, so is “the Law of Three”. If a stone monument with that sentiment on it were placed in public lands it would likely be vandalized, and names and dire threats made. I am sure that quotes from holy books from other religions would be treated the same. Islam, Judaism? What would be allowed? I have never made judgments for someone’s eternal life just because they were of a different religion. Why are christians so judgmental?
If it is so important for this monument to be displayed, why not put it on a CHURCH lawn? That seems the most appropriate place.
By the way, Islam is actually the fastest growing religion in America…many people are converting from Christianity because of the pettiness and politics of it.
As a strong wiccan woman I must say LET THEM HAVE THEIR STATUES!!! If THEY NEED TO KEEP A STATUE STANDING TO BRIBE PEOPLE TO HAVE FAITH IN THEIR BELIEFS, let them do it. As long as we know who we are,who cares what they do. Screw screaming about things being unfair. It life, for them lifes unfair. Who cares about their worldly objects, when the day comes to be judged, do you think we’ll even care about a statue? Too much press goes into these stupid material things. Too much useless time is spent argueing over this.
It’s actually very simple. US Constitution, 1st Amendment, says: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;…” In the civilian sector, this basically gives us the right to exercise our beliefs freely, but when the Government is involved, then that changes everything.
The Commandments being located on federally owned property gives the “impression” (whether it’s the intention or not) of Government established religion, which is unconstitutional. If I have to go to court over some dispute where my beliefs have to be brought up for some reason, then I don’t want to feel defeated right off the bat when I’m walking into the court room, where the Judeo-Christian beliefs are plasterd on the wall.
Does it hurt anyone that the Commandments are there? Not any more than it would hurt to have Pagan commandments there, but that’s not the point. The point is that the 1st Amendment was set created by our Founding Fathers to keep Government and Religion separate and to not come across as one being more important than another. Does that mean you can’t express yourself? No, but one must be careful as to how he or she does so.
Many people (who are in the religious majority) don’t think it’s that big a deal, but let’s be honest here. Religion is the center of controversy over many arguments, disputes, and even wars.
Many people hold their religious beliefs over their own family, yet have the nerve to tell others (minority faiths) that they’re just being to politically correct or sensitive. These people obviously haven’t studied enough to see the hard times that their own religion(s) went through and how it became what it is today.
Religion is a very touchy subject and should be treated very delicately. I believe that there’s a time and place to be spiritual and if you’re at work, find someplace private; otherwise, wait until you go home at the end of the day to get your spiritual fix.
Brandon -
“If a Pagan symbol were to be put up, the Christians would pitch a fit about it. Bottom line, end of story.”
My thoughts exactly. There is a time and place for religion and that public-funded lawn is NOT it. Not for ANY religion.
Ahahahahaha, some of those comments are priceless… “Antichrist in the whitehouse!” oh dear oh dear.
I personally don’t really care about the monument, but then it’s not in my neighbourhood, if it was I’m sure I’d find it tacky.
I do find it offensive that a pagan monument would be shot down straight away.
Here’s my solution - Put a disclaimer on the statue! “This statue and it’s represented religion does not express the views of all locals and authority.”
Or.. tell the christians they can keep their commandments, if we can erect a pagan monument next to it!
:)
(P.S. Athena, that sign would P*SS me off too… I don’t think I could resist the urge to vandalise it, or at least mount one near by that says “Miami is also a proud Pagan community”.)
What’s wrong with the Ten Commandments? Can’t hurt you to follow them.
I agree with many of the comments that I have read. I believe that if there is going to be a statue stating one religion, there should be one for all of our religions. This is not a one religion country and was never meant to be. Let us all be able to voice our religions or let no one be able to.
Upon reading some of the posts, one reads something about the Christians having their Ten Commandments. ??? Hello? Moses gave the Ten Commandments to the Hebrews. In the Book of Exodus. The Ten Commandments don’t “belong” to anyone. It’s good advice. A good read is Emmet Fox’s essay called, oddly enough, The Ten Commandments. Explains them very well. Why do so many people get offended so easily? Thou shalt have no other gods before me, means that you cannot have God be anything more — or less — than what you believe God to be. So if you believe God (or whatever you want to call it) is a vengeful punishing God, that is how God will manifest in your life. I think God is nothing but pure perfection and love.
If the commandments are not of your religion, you should never have to feel that you have to follow them. That is one reason that this country is based on freedom of religion.
Is there a way that about.com can cease and desist with the fundamentalist christian advertisements on the Paganwiccan.about.com site? It’s gone on long enough and is getting on my very last nerve.
In Montgomery Co, IL they had a sign that said “In God we trust” (or something similar, It’s been 10 yrs). Someone threw a fit. The county fought it for a while but financially could not keep up the fight. I’m Pagan, but the sign had been up for decades and never harmed anyone. They finally moved the sign across the street and more at eye level, so all could see. This sigh was about 8 feet long and MAYBE 10 inches high. On the 4th floor it was almost unnoticeable, but now has a lot more attention. The sign should not have been there, but since it had been for 50+ years, I think it should have stayed. I guess it is hard to understand… Big shot, “out-of-towners” came into the small community and forced their opinion upon them. I think church and state should be separate, but I think what happened was wrong.
Fate wrote: *(P.S. Athena, that sign would P*SS me off too… I don’t think I could resist the urge to vandalise it, or at least mount one near by that says “Miami is also a proud Pagan community”.)*
LOL…yes I can see where you are coming from, but how would that make me a better person if I vandilized their sign….I wouldn’t anyway even tho they probably would mine if I put up a similar sign…oh but don’t think that I have not been tempted…LOL
I HAVE thought about spray painting over the Christian with Pagan but I just couldn’t do that. Let them have their delusions. They would have heart attacks if they knew us “S. worshippers” were having regular gatherings down the road….hmmm…I just had an idea about that….I might have to bring it to their attention in a subtle way…you think?
LOL
Blessings all
Athena
why is eveyone talking in bold?
I was wondering the same thing IZ. I don’t know of any wy to change it. Must be a site issue.
Athena
Vivianne - basically, the Mormon ads are here because the LDS is willing to shell out big bucks so our Pagan readers don’t have to. Here’s more on that: What’s Up With Those Mormon Ads?
Re the bolding issue: Someone inserted an html tag into their post but didn’t close it, so everything after that ended up bolded. All fixed now
patti
Vianne wrote: What’s wrong with the Ten Commandments? Can’t hurt you to follow them.
Yes it can, Vianne. The very first one would require me to forsake my gods!
If we took every piece of “Christian endorsement” out of everything it has infected over the years and years of its dictatorship we would have to remodel the face of the planet. Let them have their statues, monuments, IDOLS. Don’t you see? They are freaking out; their worst nightmare is coming true. The peoples of the world are waking up and they are full of questions… the outdated answers the Book Religions have relied on from the begining no longer pascify. Better they direct their energies towards things that do not cost lives; as they have in the past.
Vianne, it also wouldn’t hurt YOU to follow the 13 Principles of Wiccan Belief…especially the one about NOT PROSELYTYZING.
If the Ten Commandments are erected on public-funded property, 13 Principles of Wiccan Belief should be erected right beside it. (Also whatever other religions want to come forth with their plaques — all funded by taxpayers, of course.)
BTW, Pardon me for feeding the trolls, but it had to be addressed.
The answer should never be “they can do it as long as we can do it”. It doesn’t make it right for one just because we do it too.
Church and State should be separate, period. Worship at home, at church, in nature, but not at work; especially in Government organizations.
…..and our goal shouldn’t be to erect Pagan or Wiccan principles next to other religious monuments that are located in places where they shouldn’t be. Our goal should be to petition to have those monuments in those locations removed.
Freedom of religion does mean all religions. That means a christian can put up the 10 commandments and a Pagan can put up the Wiccan Rede.
What’s funny is that the Christians insist on putting the Jewish ten commandments on display. The Christian ones are the two said by Jesus–to love God and to love our neighbor–though they do seem to forget the second now and then.
searching4center, just because something has been where it is at for decades does not mean it is ok or right or that it shouldnt come down. The old ‘well it has been that way for years’ is a poor argument for keeping whatever it is that probably needs to come down.
I agree with you Morrin when you say that “Freedom of religion does mean all religions”, but freedom of religion doesn’t and shouldn’t always apply when Government is involved.
We shouldn’t put up the Wiccan Rede just because the 10 commandments are posted. Two wrongs do not make a right. We should follow the law set forth by our Founding Fathers and have the commandments removed if they’re posted or erected some where they shouldn’t be.
Well Vianne,
I have my jewish bible and yes the ten commandments are in Exodus
and here is what the Torah has to say.
Exodus Chapter 20
א וַיְדַבֵּר אֱלֹהִים, אֵת כָּל-הַדְּבָרִים הָאֵלֶּה לֵאמֹר. {ס} 1 And God spoke all these words, saying: {S}
ב אָנֹכִי יְהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ, אֲשֶׁר הוֹצֵאתִיךָ מֵאֶרֶץ מִצְרַיִם מִבֵּית עֲבָדִים: לֹא-יִהְיֶה לְךָ אֱלֹהִים אֲחֵרִים, עַל-פָּנָי. 2 I am the LORD thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.
ג לֹא-תַעֲשֶׂה לְךָ פֶסֶל, וְכָל-תְּמוּנָה, אֲשֶׁר בַּשָּׁמַיִם מִמַּעַל, וַאֲשֶׁר בָּאָרֶץ מִתָּחַת–וַאֲשֶׁר בַּמַּיִם, מִתַּחַת לָאָרֶץ. 3 Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;
ד לֹא-תִשְׁתַּחֲוֶה לָהֶם, וְלֹא תָעָבְדֵם: כִּי אָנֹכִי יְהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ, אֵל קַנָּא–פֹּקֵד עֲוֹן אָבֹת עַל-בָּנִים עַל-שִׁלֵּשִׁים וְעַל-רִבֵּעִים, לְשֹׂנְאָי. 4 thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them; for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me;
ה וְעֹשֶׂה חֶסֶד, לַאֲלָפִים–לְאֹהֲבַי, וּלְשֹׁמְרֵי מִצְוֹתָי. {ס} 5 and showing mercy unto the thousandth generation of them that love Me and keep My commandments. {S}
ו לֹא תִשָּׂא אֶת-שֵׁם-יְהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ, לַשָּׁוְא: כִּי לֹא יְנַקֶּה יְהוָה, אֵת אֲשֶׁר-יִשָּׂא אֶת-שְׁמוֹ לַשָּׁוְא. {פ} 6 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh His name in vain. {P}
ז זָכוֹר אֶת-יוֹם הַשַּׁבָּת, לְקַדְּשׁוֹ. 7 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
ח שֵׁשֶׁת יָמִים תַּעֲבֹד, וְעָשִׂיתָ כָּל-מְלַאכְתֶּךָ. 8 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work;
ט וְיוֹם, הַשְּׁבִיעִי–שַׁבָּת, לַיהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ: לֹא-תַעֲשֶׂה כָל-מְלָאכָה אַתָּה וּבִנְךָ וּבִתֶּךָ, עַבְדְּךָ וַאֲמָתְךָ וּבְהֶמְתֶּךָ, וְגֵרְךָ, אֲשֶׁר בִּשְׁעָרֶיךָ. 9 but the seventh day is a sabbath unto the LORD thy God, in it thou shalt not do any manner of work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy man-servant, nor thy maid-servant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates;
י כִּי שֵׁשֶׁת-יָמִים עָשָׂה יְהוָה אֶת-הַשָּׁמַיִם וְאֶת-הָאָרֶץ, אֶת-הַיָּם וְאֶת-כָּל-אֲשֶׁר-בָּם, וַיָּנַח, בַּיּוֹם הַשְּׁבִיעִי; עַל-כֵּן, בֵּרַךְ יְהוָה אֶת-יוֹם הַשַּׁבָּת–וַיְקַדְּשֵׁהוּ. {ס} 10 for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested on the seventh day; wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. {S}
יא כַּבֵּד אֶת-אָבִיךָ, וְאֶת-אִמֶּךָ–לְמַעַן, יַאֲרִכוּן יָמֶיךָ, עַל הָאֲדָמָה, אֲשֶׁר-יְהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ נֹתֵן לָךְ. {ס} 11 Honour thy father and thy mother, that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. {S}
יב לֹא תִרְצָח, {ס} לֹא תִנְאָף; {ס} לֹא תִגְנֹב, {ס} לֹא-תַעֲנֶה בְרֵעֲךָ עֵד שָׁקֶר. {ס} 12 Thou shalt not murder. {S} Thou shalt not commit adultery. {S} Thou shalt not steal. {S} Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. {S}
יג לֹא תַחְמֹד, בֵּית רֵעֶךָ; {ס} לֹא-תַחְמֹד אֵשֶׁת רֵעֶךָ, וְעַבְדּוֹ וַאֲמָתוֹ וְשׁוֹרוֹ וַחֲמֹרוֹ, וְכֹל, אֲשֶׁר לְרֵעֶךָ. {פ} 13 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house; {S} thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his man-servant, nor his maid-servant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s. {P}
יד וְכָל-הָעָם רֹאִים אֶת-הַקּוֹלֹת וְאֶת-הַלַּפִּידִם, וְאֵת קוֹל הַשֹּׁפָר, וְאֶת-הָהָר, עָשֵׁן; וַיַּרְא הָעָם וַיָּנֻעוּ, וַיַּעַמְדוּ מֵרָחֹק. 14 And all the people perceived the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the voice of the horn, and the mountain smoking; and when the people saw it, they trembled, and stood afar off.
טו וַיֹּאמְרוּ, אֶל-מֹשֶׁה, דַּבֵּר-אַתָּה עִמָּנוּ, וְנִשְׁמָעָה; וְאַל-יְדַבֵּר עִמָּנוּ אֱלֹהִים, פֶּן-נָמוּת. 15 And they said unto Moses: ‘Speak thou with us, and we will hear; but let not God speak with us, lest we die.’
טז וַיֹּאמֶר מֹשֶׁה אֶל-הָעָם, אַל-תִּירָאוּ, כִּי לְבַעֲבוּר נַסּוֹת אֶתְכֶם, בָּא הָאֱלֹהִים; וּבַעֲבוּר, תִּהְיֶה יִרְאָתוֹ עַל-פְּנֵיכֶם–לְבִלְתִּי תֶחֱטָאוּ. 16 And Moses said unto the people: ‘Fear not; for God is come to prove you, and that His fear may be before you, that ye sin not.’
יז וַיַּעֲמֹד הָעָם, מֵרָחֹק; וּמֹשֶׁה נִגַּשׁ אֶל-הָעֲרָפֶל, אֲשֶׁר-שָׁם הָאֱלֹהִים. {ס} 17 And the people stood afar off; but Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was. {S}
יח וַיֹּאמֶר יְהוָה אֶל-מֹשֶׁה, כֹּה תֹאמַר אֶל-בְּנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל: אַתֶּם רְאִיתֶם–כִּי מִן-הַשָּׁמַיִם, דִּבַּרְתִּי עִמָּכֶם. 18 And the LORD said unto Moses: Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel: Ye yourselves have seen that I have talked with you from heaven.
יט לֹא תַעֲשׂוּן, אִתִּי: אֱלֹהֵי כֶסֶף וֵאלֹהֵי זָהָב, לֹא תַעֲשׂוּ לָכֶם. 19 Ye shall not make with Me–gods of silver, or gods of gold, ye shall not make unto you.
כ מִזְבַּח אֲדָמָה, תַּעֲשֶׂה-לִּי, וְזָבַחְתָּ עָלָיו אֶת-עֹלֹתֶיךָ וְאֶת-שְׁלָמֶיךָ, אֶת-צֹאנְךָ וְאֶת-בְּקָרֶךָ; בְּכָל-הַמָּקוֹם אֲשֶׁר אַזְכִּיר אֶת-שְׁמִי, אָבוֹא אֵלֶיךָ וּבֵרַכְתִּיךָ. 20 An altar of earth thou shalt make unto Me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt-offerings, and thy peace-offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen; in every place where I cause My name to be mentioned I will come unto thee and bless thee.
כא וְאִם-מִזְבַּח אֲבָנִים תַּעֲשֶׂה-לִּי, לֹא-תִבְנֶה אֶתְהֶן גָּזִית: כִּי חַרְבְּךָ הֵנַפְתָּ עָלֶיהָ, וַתְּחַלְלֶהָ. 21 And if thou make Me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stones; for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast profaned it.
כב וְלֹא-תַעֲלֶה בְמַעֲלֹת, עַל-מִזְבְּחִי: אֲשֶׁר לֹא-תִגָּלֶה עֶרְוָתְךָ, עָלָיו. {פ} 22 Neither shalt thou go up by steps unto Mine altar, that thy nakedness be not uncovered thereon.
it is both hebrew and translated to english.
ok I found something better,
so as not to be to confusing with the herbrew that was in the other comment.
1 And G-d spoke all these words, saying:
2 I am HaShem thy G-d, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;
5 thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them; for I HaShem thy G-d am a jealous G-d, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me;
6 and showing mercy unto the thousandth generation of them that love Me and keep My commandments.
7 Thou shalt not take the name of HaShem thy G-d in vain; for HaShem will not hold him guiltless that taketh His name in vain.
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work;
10 but the seventh day is a sabbath unto HaShem thy G-d, in it thou shalt not do any manner of work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy man-servant, nor thy maid-servant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates;
11 for in six days HaShem made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested on the seventh day; wherefore HaShem blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
12 Honour thy father and thy mother, that thy days may be long upon the land which HaShem thy G-d giveth thee.
13 Thou shalt not murder.
13 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
13 Thou shalt not steal.
13 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
14 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house; thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his man-servant, nor his maid-servant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s. 15 And all the people perceived the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the voice of the horn, and the mountain smoking; and when the people saw it, they trembled, and stood afar off.
16 And they said unto Moses: ‘Speak thou with us, and we will hear; but let not G-d speak with us, lest we die.’
17 And Moses said unto the people: ‘Fear not; for G-d is come to prove you, and that His fear may be before you, that ye sin not.’
18 And the people stood afar off; but Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where G-d was. 19 And HaShem said unto Moses: Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel: Ye yourselves have seen that I have talked with you from heaven.
20 Ye shall not make with Me–gods of silver, or gods of gold, ye shall not make unto you.
21 An altar of earth thou shalt make unto Me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt-offerings, and thy peace-offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen; in every place where I cause My name to be mentioned I will come unto thee and bless thee.
22 And if thou make Me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stones; for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast profaned it.
23 Neither shalt thou go up by steps unto Mine altar, that thy nakedness be not uncovered thereon.
From Exodus chapter 20
it is from MY own Jewish bible which is also called the torah or Tanahk.
I think that this is not an issue about being fair. This is an issue of heritage, it has nothing to do with faith and I don’t know why Christians/Non-Christians think that it is. Do people realize that the founding fathers derived things from John Locke, a philosopher, just the same as they took the Ten Commandments from the Christian Faith as a value system. Parhaps those who want these values erased and all that have to do with God should start their own country and see how it works out. Why can we not see Christianity as a philosophy? If John Locke had written the Ten Commandments, would we accept them on our buildings out of respect of his influences on our heritage?
I totally agree with Brandon. The monument itself is an expression of the freedom of religion, but done so in a completely inappropriate place. Nothing religious should be erected near a courthouse or other government building. Religious/spiritual items of this nature should be reserved for places of worship or in private homes.
Grim_Reaper_syp says:
” Some people? I’m a Christian/Pagan now! Why are they making such a big deal over a statue or monument! Get the Judges to force the American Government to explain 911. I’m still waiting to see the so called “plane” that hit the pentagon????”
I have to say,perhaps you missed the news report and video. 2 planes for the towers,1 for the Pentagon,and 1 missed and crashed in PA. The American people basically “ordered” Bush to take military action.That was the outcry from the American people….they got what they asked for….then blamed the government.
Regardless of what figures are placed in or around the courthouse you are still sworn in on the Bible. Why hasn’t anyone debated that issue? That should be more the point than a statue or figurine of the 10 Commandments.And does swearing in on a Bible really mean the person will be honest…nope. As a Pagan do they really think the Bible matters to me? I respect their right to believe in it,but I do not. Separation of church and state meant just that,so why is it a surprise when that is upheld? Why not a plaque with various symbols representing all religions? All religions lead to the same Creator in the end. Then all who enter the courthouse will feel they will be equally treated under the law. And by the way our government is modeled after the system used by the Iroquois Nation,not the Bible. And also perhaps,originally,the Bible was used as a catch all symbol to represent good values,ethics,and morals.When the country was formed there weren’t so many options to draw from,it was a symbol to represent the positive.You know “the people” still are responsible for the government. So when you petition or vote be very careful,you may get what you are asking for and you may have second thoughts later.All religion is man made,therefore it is corrupt.We must all remember we are spirits having a human experience.Freedom from religion instead of “freedom of religion”.
Shanon says:
“If a Pagan symbol were to be put up, the Christians would pitch a fit about it. Bottom line, end of story.”
Exactly. If you look at some of the comments, it’s almost laughable how they blame “those heathens,” even when it has absolutely nothing to do with actual heathens, or the people they THINK they’re blaming, which would be Pagans in general. This is utterly ridiculous.
The law is clear, even to ME, and I’m only 14. You cannot put religious symbols up in a public place. The Ten Commandments are a religious symbol, albeit an obvious one. They are upset because they had to take it down, yet it would be national news if some poor town put up a Pagan symbol somewhere.
The hypocrisy is evident and rather sickening. As is the comments below the original article.
I would just like to say, I am glad I live in Chicago, and not anywhere near the Bible Belt or the Northeast.