Patrick McCollum on Wiccans' Civil Rights

QUOTE: Only individuals who do not see it as their duty to promote certain religious practices over others should be hired in such positions.

More religious discrimination. Does this rule out 100% of evangelical Christians? Yes, and also those of other faiths who feel God’s call to be evangelists.

This example of bigotry assumes (falsely) that people with a high view of evangelism are incapable of being fair and of interpreting the law! How ugly and unAmerican to hold such bigoted views.

Far better is to judge the person as an individual independently of his/her religious beliefs. Examine the person’s life history instead.

What is especially disappointing is that Patti did not detect and reject the bigotry of McCollum. Perhaps now she will take a more open and tolerant view.

But kudos to the desire to treat prisoners with fairness, to allow them to preach and practice their faiths. In the 1950s and early 1960 the faith of prison chaplains was filtered by the liberals… evangelicals need not apply for government prison chaplain jobs!

Then the Vietnam War happened and the prison authorities discovered the liberal chaplains promoted draft dodging and civil as well as violent protests! And drug use. Needless to say the liberals lost their exclusive death hold on who could serve as prison chaplains or who could be allowed to visit in prison or what literature was permitted. We true Christians were allowed to be involved again!

Lesson: Ban unlawful discrimination.

Side issue: Ban only religious groups that promote crime… Islamic fascism! But let Westernized tolerant moslems who don’t believe in killing converts be chaplains.

I would say that in this quote, ” Only individuals who do not see it as their duty to promote certain religious practices over others should be hired in such positions”, duty to promote should and probably did refer to “on the job” actions not religious doctrine. They referred to individuals… not specific faiths being excluded due to fundamentalist doctrines.

With this in mind, I don’t see the bigotry you assume.

Quote-”The Dominant Religion Lens Factor is exacerbated by the fact that almost all of the administrators, who oversee religion programs in prisons, are members, and often clergy, of the very same Dominant faiths from which they take their cues, and even worse, many of them believe that their particular faith should dominate the landscape.”
To me, the issue is that the ADMINISTRATORS overseeing what is permissible and who may be appointed are not blinkered as to what is and what is not a religion.
Some religions (eg Christianity, Islam) are evangelical. Others (eg Judaism, Paganism) are not. People have their right to practise their faiths, but surely not to decide what is and what is not permissible forms of worship for those of other faiths. I think that this is the crux of the matter to which Mr. McCollum is refering.
I am Engish, so some of the political side of the issue escapes me, but I do know that I would feel terribly alone and cut of from others of my faith if I had to spend time incarcerated, even though I know that my prayers would be heard.
Surely people in prison should be allowed to contemplate the bigger issues of faith and morality – this could help prevent re-offending.
(NB – I am not suggesting that morality is solely a by-product of religion, but that religious belief and practice may help people come to terms with the consequenses of their own actions.)

>>>Friend said: What is especially disappointing is that Patti did not detect and reject the bigotry of McCollum. Perhaps now she will take a more open and tolerant view.

Actually, this is a perfect example of the DRLF that McCollum refers to. Where you see the request that “only individuals who do not see it as their duty to promote certain religious practices over others” as anti-Christian bigotry, many of us see it instead as a simple request that people respect the diversity of others. One can be an evangelical Christian and be in this position within the prison system, yet still value the right of others to practice and believe as they wish.

No one is saying that Christian ministers shouldn’t believe in Christianity — far from it. We’re simply asking that if they go into a prison system to be ministers, they don’t try to convert those who do not wish to be converted. It’s a reasonable request, IMO.

>>>Arianne said: People have their right to practise their faiths, but surely not to decide what is and what is not permissible forms of worship for those of other faiths.

Exactly!

patti

Again, this is a

QUOTE: No one is saying that Christian ministers shouldn’t believe in Christianity — far from it. We’re simply asking that if they go into a prison system to be ministers, they don’t try to convert those who do not wish to be converted.

I agree as would every evangelical. The bias is that liberals want to censor every attempt to proselytze… even among those who have NOT indicated they are not interested. How would one know when one can discuss a topic unless it is first offered as a topic for discussion? If the prisoner is not intereseted, no problem. Just change topics. If the prisioner is interested, then the chaplain should enjoy the freedom to attempt to convert him/her.

Let us respect the right of prisoners to hold any or no faith, and the right of chaplains to attempt to convert, and the right of prisoners to either continue the discussion or not, and then the chaplain must respect the wishes of the prisoner. Does that seem fair? I surely think so.

Perhaps we are in agreement. If so, then we must unite forces to resist anti-proselytism laws and rules that don’t allow voluntary conversion discussions.

Proselytising in prisons and hospitals should not be allowed. These are environments full of people who are vulnerable and who could be open to all sorts of abuses through proselytising. I’ve had the unfortunate experience to be on the recieving end of an over-zealous hospital chaplain who wouldn’t leave me be despite me telling him politely many times, I did not want to hear what he was saying. I fear this is the rule rather than the exception.

Any one can find religion any time. The point of prison is to remind the prisoner that they have committed a crime against society and that they must make reparations for that crime and rehabilitate themselves to function within society in the world outside prison. Prison chaplains (who should be well-adjusted, calm personages who are trained and experienced in counselling as well as their faith) are an indispensable part of this rehabilitation programme, but proselytising is *not*.

Chaplains do not have a right to proselytise in prisons or hospitals. These are relatively closed communities, where the people within the environment, inmates and patients, may not have the opportunity to talk to each other or other figures of authority such as wardens and nurses about ideas concerning faith and religion and therefore are at risk of being spoon-fed the chaplain’s own idea of faith and religion without the usual trial-and-error process of faith one would go through in the outside world. A prison chaplain is there to listen to the inmates and address their needs first, rather than further the chaplain’s own causes.

In the outside world, a chaplain can evangelise to their heart’s content, but within a closed community the rights of the community should come first, chief among these should be the right to openly practice their faith without persecution or attempts to convert them to something else.

I think this is a very good step towards making religion and faith a more important part in the process for inmates who want to learn more about themselves and find ways to live without crime.

People who follow a religious path have set morals, written in some text or another, be it the Ten Commanments or the Wiccan Rede. Sometimes people who have lived a life of crime need these set standards staring them in the face as a reminder of what they should and should not do. Some people are just wired wrong and don’t truly know, without being told, what is okay and what is not.

If I were in a position of power in a situation like this I would make religious discussion a part of the rehabilitation process. A class-like atmosphere for inmates who are able to socialize that offers instruction on different religions, and later individualized appointments with chaplains of whatever religious group who wanted to participate.

I think I went off on a tangent but I made the point I wanted to… I think.

Friend you have posted very colorful words about prison chaplains, can you back up your claims?

quote from Friend: “The bias is that liberals want to censor every attempt to proselytze… even among those who have NOT indicated they are not interested.”

come now, Friend…i’m a liberal (politically speaking at least) but i don’t want to censor every attempt to proselytize. My parents are also liberals, have been for a long time, including when they were *missionaries* in Africa for six years!
Just thought you should know that before you overgeneralize about liberals (or any other group) again.

Deeja:
Proselytising in prisons and hospitals should not be allowed.

What about the rights of prisoners who want to convert? Should they not continue to enjoy the privilege of asking for and receiving instruction on how to come to God through Christ? And what of the human rights of chaplains who are willing to tell these prisoners how to come to faith in Christ.

If proselytism is unconstituionally censored, what is next?

Remember the RLUIPA protects the religious freedom of prisioners and of their religious services in the United States.

God loves the prisoners who repent and want to know know Him. We cannot deny it to them. That is the current law of the land now in America. May is remain so.

Friend,
This, to me, is not a liberal or conservative argument, but a constitutional one. We have the right to religious freedom in this country, and than includes being proselitized to while incarcerated, hospitalized or otherwise institutionalized.

As for your last post, ASKING for religious guidance and PROSELETIZING are two completely different things. With proseletizing, one individual is GIVING arguments of their religion in the hopes of CONVERTING that person to the religion.

And, yes, I know what I’m talking about as I was raised Christian and remember being “trained” on how to walk up to perfect strangers and tell them the four spiritual laws for salvation. I know the difference between asking for information on a religion and having it given to you without permission.

I find all of the comments about my speech interesting and I am glad to see the conversation taking place. One of the problems in correctional systems, is that inmates are a captive audience without free will to walk away. There are two different types of Evangicals that come to prisons, those who show up and hold services, and invite anyone interested to join them, which I see as both okay and valuable, and those who go into the tiers where a prisoner is locked in their cell and prostelize to the inmate against their will, insisting that they have a right to do so. Even more concerning are those larger organizations of that sort who come into a prison and are allowed to offer special food, entertainment, and special priveledges if inmates convert or at least listen. This is wrong!!!

I’d also like to address the hiring issue. Currently, the majority of the administrators overseeing religion in prisons are individuals who activly block faiths from practicing that they don’t agree with, while at the same time giving lots of extra perks to members of their own faith. This is wrong. I’m not against people of any particular faith in our administration, be they Evangelical, Wiccan, or whatever. I only ask that they follow the Constitution and the Law when they are in government service. I am Wiccan, yet when I am on call and end up counseling a Christian or overseeing Christian services in a prison, I don’t tell them all to convert to Wicca. Instead, I serve as a professional chaplain, doing the best I can to meet the religious needs of our inmates in the context and religion that they’ve chosen to live within. There have been many a time where I have counseled a Christian in a crisis of faith, where I have encouraged them to kneel in prayer an ask the help of Jesus. But I am in full agreement with our Friend, that if an inmate indicates to you that he or she wants to know more about your faith, then it’s totally fine to share all you can. The point I was trying to make in my address to the Commission, is that dominant faiths are currently abusing the system to the extreem. Not all of them, but a large majority of them …. and that’s a traceable fact. All you have to do is review the religious grievences filed by inmates in any correctional system, and the problem is so obvious that you would be embarrased by the results. This information is freely available through the Freedom of Information Act.

Another point I would like to make here is that we (all of us) often make statements without any real knowledge of the subject. Friend made a statement about radical Muslims in prison earlier, but it is important to point out that there are far more radical Christians in prison than radical Muslims. You have Soldiers of Christ, and the KKK for starters, and there are hundreds of other similar groups. They all preach hate, and violence, and use scripture to validate their actions. That said, never once did it cross my mind to imagine that Christianity leads to crime or violence, rather, my first thoughts are that these are people who twist their religion for their own uses.

Lastly, I’d like to say that really looking at these issues from all sides is what’s important, and until the minority faiths are allowed a voice in the discussion, the truth will never really be seen.

Patrick, I appreciate your stopping by and elaborating on these issues. Thanks for all you do.

patti

wow, straight from the horse’s mouth, so to speak. what a privilege for us to hear from mr mccollum! thank you for taking the time.

i don’t consider myself knowlegeable at all about real stats regarding religion in correctional facilities. i only know as a pagan parent that it is very possible to offer more than one faith in a favorable and rich way to an individual(in my case, my children)in spite of whether or not those faiths agree with your own beliefs.

i also understand, though, how offering any religion but chrisianity is anathema to an evangelical christian, as it is tantamount to offering eternal damnation. so the main incentive i see for an evangelical christian to take the job is to “convert” as friend says (not offer salvation?)as many convicts as possible, not to offer support to individuals with varied spiritual needs.

anyway, i understand that the position cannot and should not be closed to any faith. and that members of any faith can be excellent at the job. but i submit that many evangelical christians may be highly unsuited for the task with the noted motivation.

I have been a practicing Wiccan for over twelve years. I am an ordained minister through the Universal Life Church. I have also been employed by the Federal Prison System for over seventeen years. In about two and a half years, I am eligible to retire. I would like to remain past that but not in my current position.

I have been approached by several Chaplains with questions concerning Wiccan inmates due to my knowledge of not only rituals but institution policy as well. It was suggested to me to give being a chaplain a try.

I have researched the possibility but keep coming upon walls. The biggest perhaps is that you need to be endorsed by the “endorsing body of your religion”. Wicca has no real endorsing body.

Another problem is that you are required to have a Masters of Divinity. Of course this is attainable but only through Christian based colleges and courses.

It seems that there is a double standard in all of this. The government, on one hand, states that Wicca is a real and authentic religious practice. On the other hand, they set the requirements to cater to only mainstream religions.

Quote “I have been a practicing Wiccan for over twelve years. I am an ordained minister through the Universal Life Church. I have also been employed by the Federal Prison System for over seventeen years. In about two and a half years, I am eligible to retire. I would like to remain past that but not in my current position.

I have been approached by several Chaplains with questions concerning Wiccan inmates due to my knowledge of not only rituals but institution policy as well. It was suggested to me to give being a chaplain a try.

I have researched the possibility but keep coming upon walls. The biggest perhaps is that you need to be endorsed by the “endorsing body of your religion”. Wicca has no real endorsing body.

Another problem is that you are required to have a Masters of Divinity. Of course this is attainable but only through Christian based colleges and courses.

It seems that there is a double standard in all of this. The government, on one hand, states that Wicca is a real and authentic religious practice. On the other hand, they set the requirements to cater to only mainstream religions.”

While it is true that there is a double standard, there is hope if you really want to persue a job as a chaplain. First, there are now Wiccan/Pagan organizations that have become recognized endorsing bodies by the federal government. One is Circle Sanctuary in Wisconson. Also, in the very near future you will be able obtain a Masters Degree in Chaplaincy from the Cherry Hill Seminary, the first Pagan seminary in the US. Of course both of these realities raise many other questions as Wicca becomes more mainstream, but the point is that the greater Wiccan community is raising up to meet the challenges of being treated equally and working hard to offer our contributions to society.