Miss Canada Plus 2007, Stephanie Conover, is an absolutely lovely woman. She's beautiful, she's smart, she's witty... oh, and she also happens to practice Reiki and read Tarot cards, which is why she says she was rejected as a judge for this year's Toronto Tourism pageant. Conover said she was approached recently and asked to be a judge in the Miss Toronto Tourism pageant on Feb. 2. Conover agreed to participate and says all was well until she was asked to submit a personal bio.
In her bio, Conover mentioned her many activities: singing and dancing, charity work, sonqwriting and knitting, yoga, Reiki, and tarot card reading. A few days later, the Miss Canada Plus pageant got a letter from Miss Toronto Tourism pageant director Karen Murray, saying that Conover had been eliminated as a judge. In part, the letter reads, "We need a judge who has an upright reputation and we would be proud to introduce to the audience."
It goes on to quote passages from Leviticus, and says, "Our board of directors has eliminated her as a judge as tarot card reading and reiki are the occult and is not acceptable by God, Jews, Muslims or Christians. Tarot card reading is witchcraft and is used by witches, spiritists and mediums to consult the dark world." Finally, there's a line saying that the pageant folks hope Conover will "turn from these belief systems and will repent from her practice of them."
Conover, who is Wiccan, is fuming. She says that pageant judges didn't know about her religion at the time, and simply rejected her on the basis of her practice of Reiki and use of Tarot cards. Karen Murray says that Conover is a "vindictive person" who is "just trying to stir up trouble." She adds that because her group recieves no government funding, they have the right to eliminate any potential judges from their pageant.
I should note -- and this is important -- that the Miss Toronto Tourism pageant is NOT run by the city of Toronto, and is a completely separate entity from the city's tourism department.
Anyway, the level of intolerance here just amazes me. Let's hear from some of our Candian readers -- if Conover sues, does she have a legal leg to stand on? What sort of rights does she have?
In her bio, Conover mentioned her many activities: singing and dancing, charity work, sonqwriting and knitting, yoga, Reiki, and tarot card reading. A few days later, the Miss Canada Plus pageant got a letter from Miss Toronto Tourism pageant director Karen Murray, saying that Conover had been eliminated as a judge. In part, the letter reads, "We need a judge who has an upright reputation and we would be proud to introduce to the audience."
It goes on to quote passages from Leviticus, and says, "Our board of directors has eliminated her as a judge as tarot card reading and reiki are the occult and is not acceptable by God, Jews, Muslims or Christians. Tarot card reading is witchcraft and is used by witches, spiritists and mediums to consult the dark world." Finally, there's a line saying that the pageant folks hope Conover will "turn from these belief systems and will repent from her practice of them."
Conover, who is Wiccan, is fuming. She says that pageant judges didn't know about her religion at the time, and simply rejected her on the basis of her practice of Reiki and use of Tarot cards. Karen Murray says that Conover is a "vindictive person" who is "just trying to stir up trouble." She adds that because her group recieves no government funding, they have the right to eliminate any potential judges from their pageant.
I should note -- and this is important -- that the Miss Toronto Tourism pageant is NOT run by the city of Toronto, and is a completely separate entity from the city's tourism department.
Anyway, the level of intolerance here just amazes me. Let's hear from some of our Candian readers -- if Conover sues, does she have a legal leg to stand on? What sort of rights does she have?
This is an interesting situation. On the one hand, they asked her to be a judge and submit a bio and then rejected her based on her beliefs (or perceived beliefs as it wasn’t revealed that she is Wiccan until after they rejected her as a judge). On the other hand, they are a private organization, not a government funded entity. While I think it’s rather rude of them to send a letter with the wording that they sent, I doubt you could say that she has a legal leg to stand on as they do have the right, as a private organization, to operate as they see fit; I just think they should be upfront about being a specifically Christian organization when soliciting judges and other pageant officials/personnel.
I am surprised you didn’t take a different tac. Why support beauty contests at all? On the 700 Club a few years back there were five former Miss Americas, all great looking and all born-again Christians. They rightly pointed out the problem with exploiting women in the pageant making them feel like objects on display. They found the swim suit modeling offensive in the way it is done.
As for kicking off the judge for her Satanism, well I agree with that. Wiccan think they don’t serve satan; they are wrong. There is only one God and one enemy of God. That would taint and spoil any pageant… even a children’s school Easter pageant.
The only Satanist here is yourself, fanaticism doesnt belong to Yahweh (God’s hebrew name) it belongs to the other side. Wicca for the most part anyway, doesnt even acknowledge the existance of Satan in any way, shape, or form so how are they Satanists be default?
That is the most ignorant statement that I have ever heard of and just shows how foolish the false christians of today are. Oh and btw, go read your little book again. You’ll find pages of Magick all over it from begining to end.
-The Mage
I agree with Friend about pageants. I disagree with the other comment. Freedom of speech and religion is wonderful. I am unfamiliar with Canadian law, but Purple Scorpion puts it quite succinctly.
Though this isn’t a gov’t funded entity there is no organization in Canada that is immune to discrimination. It doesn’t matter if you are a 2 person business or a big organization – you can not discriminate against people. There may be some exception if you are trying to join a religous group.
“As for kicking off the judge for her Satanism, well I agree with that. Wiccan think they don’t serve satan; they are wrong. There is only one God and one enemy of God. That would taint and spoil any pageant… even a children’s school Easter pageant.”
Good grief. Are there still people out there who have these ignorant ideas? Do Christians serve entities they don’t even know they do? No? Well, neither do others. Those who believe there is only one god and it’s theirs are following a haughty religion of ego. Wiccans and Witches do not, nor have they ever worshipped the evil entities of others. Do yourself a favor and seek the truth before you spout such ignorance in public.
There is a legal leg to stand on here. Because the pageant themselves made the issue religious by quoting the bible in their dismissal letter, they have violated Ms. Conover’s human rights. Though they do run a private organization and are free to choose who they will work with, they are not completely free to choose WHY they will not work with someone. In Canada it is illegal to choose not to hire someone based on religion, either theirs or your own. You can choose not to work with someone that is not qualified to do the job, but that certainly doesn’t seem to apply here and if we fall back to the position that Ms. Conover’s hobbies make her unsuitable or as Ms. Murray says “vindictive” and “just trying to stir up trouble” well, that’s good old defamation of character, isn’t it?
I don’t see why she would sue, she should count herself lucky that these bigoted and hipocritical(?) let on how they were BEFORE she went to judge their silly pageant. I don’t personally agree with pageants, but I know there are plenty of people who enjoy them and alot of the contestants go to alot of work and expense to be in them. I would think the Wiccan tenet “An It Harm None” would keep her from suing. Plus suing would be “vindictive” and it would put her down on their level. They are probably hoping she will sue so they can say “We told you so!” Besides which, aren’t they entitled to their beliefs just as we are? She should take a deep cleansing breath and say “There, but for the grace of the Goddess, go I”
I would first like to say that the defamation of character tac is an excellent point should she choose to sue, and I think she has some leg to stand on with that and religious exclusion.
Secondly…
“As for kicking off the judge for her Satanism, well I agree with that. Wiccan think they don’t serve satan; they are wrong. There is only one God and one enemy of God. That would taint and spoil any pageant… even a children’s school Easter pageant.”
What?? It would seem that “Friend” has come to the wrong site. I’m sure you’re intentions are pure, but being a friend does not generally include the downright harassment that is going to a Pagan and Wiccan site to tell its readers they’re going to hell. Being agnostic at my core, I don’t think that having the guts to say I don’t know everything makes me an enemy to anyone. Stop trying to “save us.”
Aside from whether she can or should sue, I am just glad that the Miss Toronto Tourism pageant’s bigotry has been brought into the light.
To Friend: I understand how you feel. I spent 35 years of my life committed to the teachings of the Church. Then I realized that Christianity is just another old religion. Wicca and Witchcraft has been much more satisfying spiritually for me personally. Please continue to worship in the way you choose. But also understand that the rest of us have our ways of connecting with the divine that differ from you. And for us there is no Satan, so please don’t try to label us as worshippers of a being that we don’t even believe exists. Satan is a Christian character, not Wiccan.
Aside from whether she can or should sue, I am just glad that the Miss Toronto Tourism pageant’s bigotry has been brought into the light.
To Friend: I underst
Hannah quote It would seem that “Friend” has come to the wrong site. I’m sure you’re intentions are pure, but being a friend does not generally include the downright harassment that is going to a Pagan and Wiccan site to tell its readers they’re going to hell. end quote
Please accept my sincere apologies. I do not intend to harrass. We can disagree, even severely, with mutual respect.
Let my opinions and sincerely held religious beliefs cause offense, not my manner of expression. Thanks for the heads up.
I’m not Canadian so I don’t know the laws up there. Here in North Carolina, the labor laws are what are known as “at will” which means that either the employee or the employer can terminate the employment at their own will. The crappy part of that is, they can fire you for any reason or no reason at all and the only thing they have to state is that “your services are no longer required.” So, it is possible to be fired for a B.S. reason, but if the employer is smart enough not to admit that it was for a religious reason, they’re off the hook.
In the case of the above, so many good points were made about it being discriminatory despite the tourist organization being privately funded. As for “Friend’s” comments, I won’t justify is repeatedly ignorant comments with an attempt to give him/her a coherent, lucid, educated response – I’ve learned to just ignore folks like that who choose to invade pagan message and chat boards.
Private pageant = their rules
The minute we say that individuals have the right to force their views on a private organization, we’re opening ourselves up to having every person who disagrees with us force their way into our private gatherings, organizations, covens, etc.
The behavior of the pageant coordinators was offensive, rude, ignorant, and displayed a lack of grace and tolerance. Illegal, though? Nope. I’d just be counting my lucky stars that I didn’t get involved with such a group of old biddies.
“The minute we say that individuals have the right to force their views on a private organization, we’re opening ourselves up to having every person who disagrees with us force their way into our private gatherings, organizations, covens, etc.”
Well said, Juliaki… well said.
Sending this to the two remaining sponsors on their website: Inferences cited in the letter show total disregard for facts and effectively further the fear and contempt that fosters continued ignorance in a world where those of sense and sensibility are letting go of stereotypes they learned in movies 3 generations ago.
While the regious practices of fundamentalist Christians do not meet my personal needs to believe and worship in a balanced, positive spiritual environment, I would not be so wrong-spirited to publicly denounce Christians as unfit to represent the best interests Toronto’s tourism and charities. I will appreciate their returning that respect.
Now “friend” you know well enough that as long as I’ve seen you on this site that we do not favor satanism. So stop toying with people and suddenly get amnesia stating that witchcraft is a satan belief. And you “KNEW” that someone was going to make a comment on your statement. Apparently you read all the articles on this sight and don’t even think to tell me that you read “somewhere” that reiki, and tarot are the devils tool. So you went beyond your bounderies of manner of expression and I do not take your statement lightly.
Kitty, you are mistaken about the nature of wicca and satanism.
*** Remainder of post deleted 1/31/2008 @ 231 pm due to prosetylizing ~~ patti ***
Friend, you talk about false g-ds instead of Yahweh …. do you realize Yahweh is another name for the Creator? G-d! Not JC (aka Jesus Christ who was a mere mortal and always claimed to be the ’son of man’) …. JC was a prophetic soul IF he even existed. Through time there has been quite a few figures who have the exact same story as his …. died & rose from the dead; which our souls do when the body dies as the soul doesn’t die with the body.
IF JC really lived, which Jewish records show he did, he was living in the time of the second temple trying to bring the jews back to their religion; not start a new one …. which ironically started a good 100 years AFTER JC died btw! LMAO
He was crucified for crimes against the state; not b/c he was a saviour to the human race. Think about it …. why would G-d, our creator who is perfect, need to come down into an imperfect world in an imperfect body to save anyone? That would make Him not perfect then as noone in the world is perfect let alone have the status of our creator.
YOU, Friend, are mistaken about wicca and satanism as well as obviously being decieved. There is NO satan. If you read up on where the satan figure came from you’d realize he’s the fallen arch angel; not some demonic critter.
No only one faith does NOT stress love & offers forgiveness. There are several modalities that do.
BTW, you never bothered mentioning anything on the comments relating to Reiki …. reiki isn’t devel worship either. It’s a healing energy that has nothing to do with any specific religion. It enhances the religion of the practitioner. In some folks, it may even awaken them to what that person perceives is wrong with that particular faith so they can be a tool in making the world a better place.
Perhaps you should do that yourself instead of being such a narrow minded bigot.
I totally agree with this:
Though this isn’t a gov’t funded entity there is no organization in Canada that is immune to discrimination. It doesn’t matter if you are a 2 person business or a big organization – you can not discriminate against people. There may be some exception if you are trying to join a religous group.
Comment by Morgaine — January 29, 2008 @ 11:59 am
Here in the US you cannot discriminate against anyone’s religious beliefs no matter if you’re a govt run organization; one that receives any amt of govt funding; or a private organization …. the only POSSIBLE exception is being turned down for joining a particular religion and/or specific church. Since Canada is so close in policies to that of the US, I would not be surprised if there are laws against discrimination there that are quite close to what are here in the US.
It’s good to see that some people still care about God’s Word and aren’t afraid to favor His way over the way of destruction. GOOD FOR THEM for doing what they did!
Friend, I’ve been fairly lenient with you so far because although I usually disagree with what you have to say, you’ve managed to say it in civil manner so far. However, I think enough people have told you that we are not Satan-worshippers for you to see that this is a misconception about our religion.
You are more than welcome to stay here and post, and even to continue stating how happy you are in your own faith. What you’re not welcome to do is repeatedly prosetlyze and accuse the rest of the folks here of being something they’re not.
Any further posts accusing Wiccans and Pagans of being Satanists will be deleted.
patti
Thank you Andrea…nicely said and I just gain some insight. I’ve heard a little of what you said. And thank you Patti…your the best.
blessed be
It has come to light via local digging into The Miss Toronto Tourism organization that at least 2 of the main founders of the pageant were also founders of an anti-gay group! They were fighting against the equal rights that the Canadian government affords them. So this is a group that has a past history of bigoted behavior, and not just against people following non-mainstream religions. (Though by their definition anyone that partakes in natural healing or divination is practicing witchcraft and needs to repent – that would include Buddhists and Hindus, along with many other religions.)
According to the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, discrimation of ANY person against ANY OTHER person for religious, race, etc, is against the law.
“Every individual is equal before and under the law and has the right to the equal protection and equal benefit of the law without discrimination and, in particular, without discrimination based on race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability.
(1) Anyone whose rights or freedoms, as guaranteed by this Charter, have been infringed or denied may apply to a court of competent jurisdiction to obtain such remedy as the court considers appropriate and just in the circumstances.”
This is not just a NeoPagan and Wiccan issue, this is an issue of biggoted discrimination.
There are several Facebook groups, the largest being “I Support Stephanie Conover”, that if you are a member of Facebook you may be very intersted in looking. We have an archive of all coverage that this issue is getting, and information regarding the picket planned for Feb. 2.
Hear in Canada we have recently had an antisemitic German deported and and their is an ongoing trial for Native leader who made antisemitic comments. This indicates the “Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms” is used extensively by the Criminal Justice System of Canada. No matter what your religion or beliefs, intolerence has no place in Canada.
This is awful.
As a private arrangement, they should be able to hire whoever they like, but as someone said under law they cannot reject someone based on religion, particularly when it was suspected that Ms Conover was Wiccan and not known for certain.
As for Ms Murray saying Ms Conover is being vindictive, I wonder how Ms Murray would feel if she was bumped from a pageant judging panel based on her Bible quotes?
Their pageant, their rules, and all, but I’d certainly love to read about the City of Toronto and Canada’s government disavowing this group and its actions. They need to at least clear up the confusion.
The Pagent was definitely wrong in elimenating on Religious Grounds. What amazes me is the fact that the person in question considers her Spiritualism as a hobby. In my bio I would not think of my personal Spiritual Beliefs to be anyone else’s business. Yes, I am Wiccan and if questioned on my beliefs I would certainly admit to it, but would not feel it necessary to add this personal part of my life into a bio.
Where is the religious freedom that we are told we have? If men are allowed to wear weapons in their socks in the name of their religion, then surely a woman is allowed to declare whithout punishment, her religious beliefs.
We are plainly not living in a free democratic society, no matter how many times we are told that we are!
I’ve read most of the other comments and I do agree and disagree with a lot of them. When it comes to the law anywhere, yes most court systems use the bible to swear, BUT when it comes to the law religion does not override, well in a case like this anyway. whoever it was that said because of her religion she should not sue, yes it is her choice but “An it harm none”, this is not one of those moments, her right as a human being, she has every right to sue! I am Canadian and I’m also Pagan. I love my beliefs and I do my very best to honor them. But when someone puts me down based on those beliefs it sometimes strikes hard because they have no idea about what those beliefs are nor do they care. They may use a religion to discriminate but in the court system don’t always think you can use it as a tactic and get away with it. when it comes to the law, especially in Canada, always go for your right as a human and not what your religious beliefs are!
I am not from Canada, but if the Canadians have a freedom of religion clause in their constitution, then all means go after them for all their worth!!! Just because a person is of a different religion doesn’t mean that they are any different that you are I. Would they do that to a Muslim???? Or a Hindu???? They are denying this ladies right to become a judge. It really shouldn’t matter. But to some people who are so narrow minded.
Stephanie, you have my support 110% all the way hun!! If I had a way and the means to be picketing with the other supporters, I would definately be there!!!! There should be a petition against these people for being so unjust to you. I am Pagan Proud and not afraid or intimidated to say so. Tarot cards have been used by CHRISTAIN Spiritualist for centuries, and Reiki has been added to many massage therapist programs as therapy and also a relaxing and healing experience.
I for one have recently received my Reiki II and intend to be a practioner in the near future. If someone with the authority to withdraw your invitation and obviously did, they should at least get their information straight and have a ligitamate cause for the withdrawal, which they had no rights to do. To judge you as they did was against your human rights and against anyone who is different be it race, religion, spiritualism, or practices. I’d also like to mention that the Christian deity Satan was created by Christians to put fear of their God in the Pagans so they would leave their beleifs and become Christians. I myself do not believe in the Christian deity Satan.
How dare they be intolerant when we as a province and a country is such a melting pot of nationalities, cultures and beliefs. Today in the 21st century, I can not and will not stand quietly by and watch a fellow Canadian be prosecuted for their beliiefs and practices, as were our fellow Pagans many centuries ago. I need not mention to which I refer as I believe I got my point across. Do not judge, least you be judged, is what the people who withdrew your invitation, should remember!!!!! You definately have my vote hun and shame on those who have done this to you.
As far as being vindictive by suing, well this is your right to do so and that is why we have laws to use in just this type of situation. Standing up for yourself because others put you down is not vindictive. It means you have faith in your beliefs and path, and that you have a backbone to stand up for what you believe in. I am not Wiccan, but I am Pagan ( Celtic/North American Indian/Cherokee ) and doing this you are representing all people of different believes, not just Pagans. I am proud to call you Sister!!
Brightest Blessings,
Lady Willow Hawk
Pagan Loud and Proud
)0(
This is leaving me fuming as well! Us Canadians are supposed to be more understanding. Just goes to show you there’s idiocy and intolerance everywhere.
Yet another (of many many) reasons I’m upset with Toronto.
Can anyone say ‘discrimination’? What ever happened to ‘freedom of religion’?
As far as Christianity is concerned:
What is the difinition of ‘prophet’?Question,are Canada’s laws the same as the USA’s?
To Cynthia:
“I would think the Wiccan tenet ‘An It Harm None’ would keep her from suing.”
Why should it? Being Wiccan does not mean that she should be spineless. Look at all the Goddesses from every culture in the world, and you will see that there was at LEAST one for “Battle”, “Justice”, “Victory”, and “Justified Anger” (Athena, Nike, and Nemesis, for example) in each of those cultures. We should not seek to harm others; however, the Goddess is strength, not weakness, and as representations of the Goddess to the world at large, we should demonstrate our strength and that we are not to be lambs led to slaughter.
Personally, I was raised to fight for my rights, and that no one could ever take anything from you that you were not willing to give. Especially not your human rights and self-respect. And I think that is something that the Goddess would want for us too.
Bright Blessings,
ArdentFlame
I believe I’ve seen “Friend” on here before and s/he is what we call a “God Troll” or “Jesus Troll” in the Internet world. Ignore the troll and it will have nothing to feed on and it will go away.
As to the issue at hand: I’m a bit disturbed that some of the pagans here feel the need to criticize Conover for being involved in a beauty pageant. That’s not for others to judge; it’s between Conover and the Goddess (whose own beauty we exult in the Charge, btw…). And of course, it’s not the issue.
I do think Conover should look into the defamation of character issue, though. It’s wrong of the pageant to accuse her and urge her to repent for practicing a religion that in no way “calls on the dark powers” — at least not in the way that Christians think.
It’s about time we start getting some case law on the books that straightens out the differences in belief systems. Our god is not their Satan. Never has been, never will be and no amount of fallacious arguing will change that.
“As for kicking off the judge for her Satanism, well I agree with that. Wiccan think they don’t serve satan; they are wrong. There is only one God and one enemy of God. That would taint and spoil any pageant… even a children’s school Easter pageant.”
Dear Goddess man! Why don’t you bring out the Witches’ Hammer and get it over with? Do you even realise how pathetic you sound?
You ignorant twit.
I’m 17 years old and I have more understanding and compassion for every living creature then you do! If you ever come back on here, and read what I’ve written I hope you feel truly ashamed of yourself. You deserve nothing more of karma for that comment.
Here is where I’m going to rant. Though I believe every life has the same rights, I wish I didn’t. Because prejudiced people like you don’t deserve them. If you even bothered to look at the rest of this site alone, if you bothered to open your eyes and see the world around you, you’d know pagans and wiccans are good, lawful, kind and caring people. There are some people who say they are pagans or wiccans but are into hexing and so on, but they aren’t. To say that a pagan/wiccan is a satanist is like saying a Christian is an arsonist, a Muslim is a terrorist, a Jew is a money-horder and a Nazi is a cute fluffy little bunny.
Next time you want to make an idiotic comment, try to make it an informed one.
Oh and just as an add on. If you’re right and I go to hell when I die for not believing in what you do, I’ll get on my knees and pray to God and thank him. Because if you’re right and you go to Heaven while I’m in Hell, I wont have to put up with you for the rest of eternity.
It is truly sad to see ignorance but i know why. i was christian and i was raised being toled “anything that isnt christian is satanic.” i never believed it. people need to be open minded but christians are taught to be close minded. “if you are open minded you could let evil things in.” if you have a closed mind you will keep evil things in.
but enough ranting.
in this situation they didnt state that they wanted christian judges so it ended up as religious persicution. regardless of the religion you arent allowed to do that. even if a real satanist applied you dont state religious requirment you cant decide based on religion.
OK..”friend” needs to stop being a preacher and stating facts he or she knows nothing about…i am pagan..i DON’T worship the devil..I DONT believe in any ONE god and i dont PRETEND to know if there really Is or ISNT one divine god or not..i respect all religions as long as they harm none physically or siritually and i dont critisize people for their choices. The woman who could have been a judge may not have legal rights to do anything but she can tell others about what happened and also put it into the paper or let a radio station know what they did. No one should be rejected for their beliefs..If it helps you feel stronger in mind, body and spirit, then believe what you want. We dont critisize kids for believing in the tooth fairy, santa and the easter bunny,but we all know the truth about them,…OR DO WE..?????
If the pageant is not sponsored by a level of government, she has the right to file a human rights complaint on the basis on discrimiination based on religion under the Ontario human rights code. If the pageant is sponsored by any level of government, she can file a complaint of violation of her freedom of belief, conscience and religion or a violation of her equality rights guarenteed by the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
I am a Canadian living in the US and going to law school. I believe a central issue will be whether the Courts recognize wicca as a religion and thereby deserving of protection under the Charter.
Jul, to answer your question, here is a link to the Canadian Department of Defense’s list of recognized religions in Canada: http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/religions/engraph/religions_toc_e.asp
For those interested in their informational page on Wicca, please load this page: http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/religions/engraph/religions36_e.asp
At the bottom, they refer readers to the Wiccan Church of Canada (ironically in Toronto!) which has on its site an interesting page from 2004 about the legal status of Wicca in Canada found here: http://www.wcc.on.ca/legal.html
All interesting and discouraging as well—I am a Reiki Master and I know many fellow Reiki Masters that just happen to be pastors of their faiths—several different faiths, I might add. So there is no water in that argument. What I find interesting is that this Tourism group sought out Stephanie without (it appears) stating that they are a certain type of group or are seeking said requirements. Asking for religious beliefs was a no-no, unless they had originally required it up front to note their specific philosophy in running their particular organization. That was a mouth full!
I am sensing that they may have already known who she was and this was a “witch hunt” on their part and their sole purpose was to humiliate her and correct her of her ways.
They stepped over the preverbal ethics line and many government laws, etc., by defaming her character. If they had any ethics at all they would have simply sent her a letter that said: “Thank you for your information, however, we are not able to use you at this time.” And left it at that—They chose to go the route they did and should be held accountable for if nothing more (and I say that lightly) defamation of character and perhaps of slander (the act or offense of saying something false or malicious that damages somebody’s reputation). They chose to make it a religious thing and private organization or not, they are representing Canada in one form or another and I would think the laws of Canada or the providence would want that cleared up or not. It certainly would be interesting to know who their backers are. People are sneaky “devils”. [I say that with tongue in cheek. ; )]
Lots of good thought out comments for the most part.
Wordpress is so clearly unfair, as a previous visitor has their comments immediately displayed, but a new visitor must wait on Patti to approve the comment. Issue? The continuity of the comments is lost, and visitors rarely go back past those they’ve read…
This only works if Patti is on the comment management 24-7, otherwise, since you risk the comments of repeat visitors like ‘Friends’ then why not let all comments become public when submitted?
*frustrated*
Well I dont think its right in all ways. Im tired of Christians who dont know what you are talking about our religion of Wicca . We are not satianist. We do not even believe in a satan.We have our love for this earth and nature. I bet when you are walking on the street , in a store or anywhere , you have no idea you know a Wiccan, Pagan. I worship the Goddess and God, I think the Christians need to read their bible again and remember their commandments on judging others. For in your belief you will go to hell for doing this, so think again before you talk about something you have no idea on , only your ignorance of. I respect other religions and all people who have their right to choose. And noone has the right to tell anyone what is right for that person cause they believe its wrong. Have more respect for everyone on this earth and you will be treated with respect back.
wicca is no more evil then christianity, hinduism, buddism or muslims. evil comments are only made by ignorant folk who can’t be bothered to reasearch or understand anybody else’s belief structure.
Dear Sirs/Ms/Transgendered persons:
I think it is totally disgusting and discraceful that you have discriminateted against Stephanie Conover because of her esoteric and religious practices. I didn’t know why your organization practices religious discrimination. I think this is totally rediculous. Religious discrimination, on the basis of Christianity/Judism/Isam beliefs, gives me the indication that anyone that isn’t part of that belief system has no way of being represented without discrimination, based on religion. How do you represent a totality of equality without quoting religious texts? Is not your organization discriminating on the basis of ones religious practices? How do you handle someone that is Budhist or Hindhu? Is your organization only sponsoring specific religious practices? Isn’t your organization practicing religious discrimination? AND if you are (which you are allegedly doing), aren’t violating a basic human right of practicing religion? Does this not violate basic human rights? If your organization needs to quote Judeo/Christian religious texts then you are not practicing a non-discrimination policy of freedom of religion. You are practincing discrimination. Regardless of ones, religion, being a Wiccan/Witch/Budhist/whatever, you are practicing a policy of discrimination of basic human rights! This is disgusting and abhorable! More than your so called religious/moral scripts, you are discriminationg on the basis of religious practices. This is abhorable. If this is your practice, then you need to advertise being of a specific religion. Your specific idications of this person’s religious practices is specific and totally discriminitory! You should be ashamed, not the contestant/judge!
Blessed BE!
Jeff L
While I think that the pagent people have every right to decide who (and what religion) that’ll work for them, they should NOT have done it so rudely. They should have put a professonal letter saying “thanks but no thanks, we’ve changed our minds.” or something to that effect.
To Friend: I’m sorry you feel that way, but I hope you have a good day anyways.
Why does everyone have to FIGHT and ARGUE about religion? To each his own and their own beliefs. Please, people. RESPECT one another.
what i like about my beliefs is my god is spiritual
“friend” reduces god to a cranky old man with all human faults revenge, judgement, love, anger, and nothing better to do than write names in his little book etc etc
ive been reading this news letter a few months now and find it comforting that most share the common good will
also nice to read about others beliefs
many are close to those ive formed
sorry this is off message but i have a thing about people who reduce their god to an old man with human values
Just a quickie.
I have visited Miss C.P. Pageant and you will find Miss Conover plastered all over the site. So I have asked them how come she is still this years representative? If she has no morals etc. Then should she not be de-crowned? or do they not dare to stand on the moral high ground and open a rather large can of worms?
I await their reply!!!!!
Steve.
Steve, my impression is that the CP Pageant is not the Miss Toronto Tourism pageant, and she won the former, but was rejected as judge of the latter. Is that not correct?
Asking to revoke her crown implies to me that you agree with the discriminatory comments from the latter pageant, and that you assume the former pageant to be both bigoted & as unprofessional as the latter!
Were you exploring that because you have reason to believe they are the same organization?
There is only one g-d and one enemy of g-d? What kind of a god would have/could have enemies? This is all so primitive sounding; the only enemies G-d might have are human beings. How dare you tell me I serve Satan? There are a whole lot of people out there who need to do some serious homework and research if their attitude depends on such narrow minded fairy tales. What I’m getting from the fundamentalists of any ilk is a reflection of pure ignorance, in the guise of arrogance. I too had forgotten that they’re really people still out there who blindly believe whatever they are told and never question for themselves.
Orenda~
Actually, that’s not quite right. This site is set up so that all comments are posted directly to the comment board, wtihout the need for moderation of comment by me. I deliberately set it up this way for the very reasons you describe, so that there is continuity of posts, and everything gets through — plus, it means I don’t have to sit at my laptop 24 hours a day.
Your previous posts that ended up in “holding”, or moderation, likely ended up there because of the hyperlinks — Wordpress assumes that many comments that include links are actually from spambots, and thus any post with a link goes to the moderation pile, where it waits for me to approve it. Typically, I try to check this every couple of days, but if you post and something doesn’t appear right away, just be patient. In the seven months I’ve been a guide, I’ve only had about half a dozen comments end up moderation, prior to yours
At any rate, I’ve gone ahead and approved your initial post with the links, and I’ll just skip over the rest to avoid duplication.
Again, it has nothing to do with Wordpress being “unfair”, it’s simply a system put into place so my readers don’t have to read a gazillion comments that offer links to penis enlargement or dating sites rather than Actual Comments.
In the future, to avoid having a link send your post to moderation, you can trick the system by typing “www[dot]domainname[dot]com”. That way the system doesn’t recognize it as HTML code.
No harm, no foul
patti
Patti, thank you for moderating & approving my comment for Jul so that it finally appeared (after my email to you to ensure it did!)
I have to say that your comment is not quite right — “all comments are posted directly to the comment board without the need for moderation”
If you chance prosetylizing, why not spam? If not, why not warn visitors of the issue with links where they see that HTML code is alllowed; so they do not question their browsers, the moderation, their connections, the situation while repeatedly reposting their comments, and having it ultimately lost in the conversation, when in fact, they are contributing on the site?
Patti – i read your article and have to ask- why does someones personal spiritual beliefs have anything whatsoever to do with their ability to judge a pageant – which Im sure would have stringent rules and guidelines ,governing not only participants but judges also . This is surely a case of discrimination at its finest .
I just want to say as someone who was raised Catholic and someone who believes that everyone should have a right to his/her beliefs that what they did was completely wrong. I myself have taken Reiki level 1 and will be taking my level 2 in March. It has opened me up more spiritually than any religion ever has! I currently do not belong to any one church but I believe no one should ever be judged on what they believe.
As for kicking off the judge for her Satanism, well I agree with that. Wiccan think they don’t serve satan; they are wrong. There is only one God and one enemy of God. That would taint and spoil any pageant… even a children’s school Easter pageant.
That’s the stupidest crap I’ve ever heard in my life! It simply amazes me that this ignorant soul that said this even knows how to use a computer, much less how to read… Before you go judging other people’s religions, you should take a long hard look at your own soul, FRIEND. And by the way, I’m not afraid to say my name. I’m Margaret, I’m Pagan, and I’m proud to be that way!!!!!!
Why do christians even bother to post on Wiccan sites? I’m glad that they feel our souls are at stake…it makes me feel all warm and cozy inside just to know they care so much!
I read somewhere on these comments that the ‘An harm none’ doesn’t necessarily mean that she should just sit back and turn the other cheek…that doesn’t mean that she should just sit back and let these bigots walk all over her! Dismissing her for her religious beliefs is one thing, but did they have to urge her ‘repent’ and all??? No, I don’t think she should just sit back and take it…take them all the way to the highest court in the land if need be!!
>>>Orenda said: If you chance prosetylizing, why not spam? If not, why not warn visitors of the issue with links where they see that HTML code is alllowed; so they do not question their browsers, the moderation, their connections, the situation while repeatedly reposting their comments, and having it ultimately lost in the conversation, when in fact, they are contributing on the site?
Quite honestly, the reason I’m willing to chance prosetylizing is because 99% of the people who post here DON’T prosetylize. They’re here for honest discussion, and I don’t see any need to keep these folks’ posts in a holding pattern on the off chance that someone is going to come along with a drive-by preaching.
The thing about spambots is that they are not user-generated, they’re completely random. A spambot posted can create literally THOUSANDS of posts in a day, all over the web, infiltrating message boards and comment pages with ads for Viagra and get-rich-quick schemes. The only way to prevent them is to make any comments that include HTML code go into moderation. As I mentioned before, there have only been about a dozen comments in moderation since I came on board, and I’ve approved every one of them.
In the case of the drive-by preachers, I can always go in and edit or delete them if the need arises. I want this to be a place where anyone feels free to post their opinions, no matter what their spiritual path. It’s open to everyone, and there have been very few posts I’ve deleted or edited out of the queue, because i think everyone’s entitled to an opinion. In the case of Friend, who posted further up thread, I explained to him that no further references to Wiccans being Satanists would be tolerated, and thus far he has not posted anything in that vein.
I know it does make it inconvenient when you do post a comment with a link in it, but I really do believe its’ far better to do things this way than to have every single comment go through moderation on the off chance that someone may post a preachy kind of thing. Thanks for understanding
patti
Thanks again Patti
I would still suggest that a single line of text exist on the comment pages, below the HTML allowed instructions, that says there will be a delay in the posting as it’s moderated when links are added…
Just a suggestion for those few of us who offer sources or resources in our comments.
Cheers
It is so important that all religeons stand up and take action when blatantly descriminated against and facing false accusation. The pageant made blatant false accusations and took illegal recourse to distance themselves from their perceived beliefs.
It wasn’t that long ago that people were burned at the stake for their beleifs. And of course beheadings and murder and punishments exist here and abroad, in the Name Of God,every single day, every single hours. We must not be lazy. We can’t afford to wave our hands at the issue and say, “oh brother! Whatever!” and hope it will go away. It will not go away, EVER. But we can minimize the injustices with every step we take to correct them with legal and professional action. The energy shared here should go into the anti-defamation league.
There is no need for the discrimination that is going on. Whether it be about pageants or religions.
I am catholic, but i respect every individuals right to have their own freedom of religion.
I am also a beauty queen, and think many of you have misconceptions about pageants. There may be pageants that are mainly about looks. but for the most part they are used to promote inner beauty, confidence and charity. I’m sure Miss Canada Plus could tell you that aswell.
So to all you wiccans that have a problem with her because she was in a pageant, maybe you should know what your talking about before you start typing.
She most definitely has a legal leg to stand on. We have a Human Rights board in Canada and in every province. She can sue on the basis of religious intolerance and harrassment. They are mentioned in the Human Rights Tribunal categories of rights and freedoms and the corresponding laws that go with them. (Here’s a link for more information)
http://canada.gc.ca/acanada/vwctgry.htm?lang=eng&font=0&categoryId=52
It definitely was made personal by the comments of the director who quoted Bible passages. That shows the close mindedness of some people of other religions. I guess he doesn’t realize about the Kabbalists in Judaism and that there are Muslims who use Astrology. We have a show in canada here that every week along with teachings from the Koran, does a weekly horoscope.Spoken in both English and the Muslim language (sorry don’t know what that is) So it’s not as if they don’t believe, it depends on the religion.
For the person who made this comment:
(As for kicking off the judge for her Satanism, well I agree with that. Wiccan think they don’t serve satan; they are wrong. There is only one God and one enemy of God. That would taint and spoil any pageant… even a children’s school Easter pageant.)
Comment by Friend — January 29, 2008 @ 9:26 am
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Wicca and Satanism are not the same religion and not even connected. You’re correct in that Wiccans do not believe in Satan.
However not all witches consider themselves Wiccan, nor do they follow Wicca.
Those witches may believe in Satan but not necessarily worship him, (but they may use very un-Wiccan like magick that others could consider Satanism related)
However if you’re acknowledging Wicca you must realize there isn’t just 1 God but that every religion follows it’s own version of God and with Wicca we believe in the Goddess and God, female and male, but it is all the same energy. We also acknowledge a Universal energy we call the All, the infinite All Knowing,existent in every thing, in every form, every where. This energy is neither male nor female it just is.
Some Wiccans believe in only or only follow the Goddess due to the whole disliking the God and how Christians,Muslims and the Jewish religion have touted that there is only One God and HE is it!
Most Wiccans believe in balance and duality as you can’t have male without female.
Please be careful how you say what you said. You are preaching to people who don’t wish to be preached to as we’ve got our faith and you have yours and you sounded as if you’re trying to convert people who practice Wicca with that final comment so you were much like the director in the situation discussed in the article. Sorry to say but it’s true.
You are entitled to your opinion but the comment was not appreciated by me.
That is the only reason I am posting this.
Kimberley
So to all you wiccans that have a problem with her because she was in a pageant, maybe you should know what your talking about before you start typing.
Comment by meghan — March 12, 2008 @ 5:21 pm
This woman wasn’t a contestant, she was a judge.
As usual, thank you Patti for your wonderful work.
Now, about “Friend” or any other Christian posting on a Wiccan site – why do they do that? To get you riled up.
Prosetlying is what they are supposed to do, anywhere, and everywhere. If they can go there and try to get through, they will do anything.
I have a sign outside my front door, that says: No Soliciting! Solicitamos Prohibidos! (I only hope that is truly correct) but the idea is there.
I recently had 2 Mormon female members come to our door, and I pointed at the sign, and one said ” But we aren’t soliciting”. I said, yes actually, you are. You are soliciting your faith, your beliefs, you’re trying to sell me a steal of a deal! If you could, you would get your foot through the door, and then tell me I’m going to hell, I better buy into your faith right now!
And closed the door. I got her all riled up. But will it stop, no! Unfortunately, it won’t. Why not? Their Church dogma that rewrote the bible practically in its entirity, states: Go make disciples in every land. Go and Multiply.
I don’t know about you, but I have to deflect them every time they come to my door or catch me on the street with flyers. It gets old. But if you turn to tell them about your faith, oh the battle of the words begins.
So, when someone like “Friend” posts here, the best thing to do, is stop it from coming back, by posting comments to their comments. Lets NOT feed the fire with more fuel. There are better things to do.
Well who said discrimination didn’t have rules or boundaries ?
You know, I was in pageants for a long time. I did them because having a crown was a way to open doors otherwise closed. I really wanted to help people. In the system I was in, we were required to have a “platform,” something we stood behind and promoted. Something that meant something personally. Now, they SAY pageants are supposed to empower women. WRONG! My platform was on women’s safety (having been raped twice) and they told me that it was too taboo…. Wouldn’t you think that women’s safety is empowering to women? I thought so too. Well, the girl that won that particular pageant had a platform on volunteerism…. yeah. Shouldn’t we be doing that anyway? Well, I switched my platform, thinking I could still make a difference, to tolerance. Which was all fine and Dandy as long as I stuck to race alone. It started getting murky when they found out that I practiced my native beliefs. Of course they wanted a Choctaw Queen, who wouldn’t? It would boost their pageant’s image. But, when they found out I was pagan I got first runner up (which is weird b/c I won interview… I thought smarts were more important than evening gown, again I was wrong) I wasn’t distressed by this until I won my first title. A girl and I got 50 50, but i won interview so I won the crown. The pageant director hurt me pretty badly by saying I shouldn’t have won. Daddy’s money bought her a title that only lasted as long as she was queen. Shortly after, talent section went up to 40 percent and interview to 20. WEll, again, I was hopeful, but after I won my second title, I was not allowed to attend the state competition after they found out from that same director that I had an earth based religion. It’s kinda hard to get by with those beliefs outside of your own circle in Louisiana. The point of this story is that pageants are shams and woe the REAL woman that enters them. I feel for Miss Conover and want her to know that she’s not alone.
some peaple… peaple like friend they dont understand wicca/paganism. part of that is fear of the unknown. what we do not aknoweledge or we twist cannot hurt us because it is not real to us. the second part of that is well just the fact that may christians grew up in christian familys. It has been pounded into their brains since inception that witches/pagans are bad and evil and worship the one person that all christian children fear. after years of listening to this it will be hard for them to open their minds and explore new ideas. i however do not condon any type of prejudice. this next part is for friend and minie friends. i once read something from a book it went a little like this light is for choice easily seen, dark is for fate no choice to glean. i do not beleive in fate but it really stuck with me. mabey it will help them understand. oh and natalie? you go girl!! remember WICCAN AND PROUD. ~ Ericka