PantheaCon and Gender Controversy

In ancient Paganism, men could not participate in Female Mysteries unless and until they underwent castration, thus “becoming female.” So perhaps trans ppl should be allowed, but honestly, it’s an innovation to simply cry discrimination.

I read somewhere that there were other events that had restrictions. Is this true? I think (and my opinion means exactly nothing, I know) that for something like PantheaCon, there shouldn’t be events with restrictions. If someone wanted to do an event that restricted who could attend, they could have it off-site. It wouldn’t be hard to advertise with social media today.

I was really upset over this whole thing the last few days. To the point were I was like, “Seriously, this is the kind of crap that made me leave the monotheistic religions.” I was ready to say, to hell with it, I’m going to be an atheist. I see both sides (particularly being a woman with a sibling intending to go through a sex-change), and it just tears me up. With what happened last year, it should have never happened again this year.

I strongly feel that public rituals need to be PUBLIC. I’m never supportive of any rites that are exclusive, preferring to do any female empowerment rituals as a solitary, but if these groups want to practice their way, they need to do it as a private ritual, not a public one.

As a friend to many different trans people, discriminating based on birth is complete and total bullshit. Male to female transpeople have believed themselves to be women since birth, EXPECTING to be women when they puberty and horrified when they realize they are men. They are simply correcting what nature got wrong, being true to themselves, which I believe is the essence of femininity (and masculinity). They have empowered themselves to ignore the hate of society and blossom into the people they were always meant to be. Being outsiders ourselves, I’m appalled that this is an issue, and that we’re slapping the faces of countless women who have finally built the courage to reclaim what makes them THEM, the same process many of US had to go through to find our path leading us here, among friends. If we, pagans, Wiccans, heathens, cannot empathize, cannot accept these men and women, cannot welcome them to the loving fold of the Goddess and God and the healing of the Earth, then where do they go? I believe that it’s our prerogative to be as welcoming and affectionate as we can to all who find themselves on a similar path, to treat them with the same courtesy and warmth that we received when we first began.

It felt to me that their male-hatred was transferred onto trans women.

Do they really think only cis women are victimized? Do they really think trans women are unworthy of “healing?” The stories of the abuses perpetrated upon many trans women are horrific, and implying that trans women are really just closeted rapers is just more salt in the wound. Again, trans women are not men — we are women. We do not have male privilege, or even cis female privilege (obviously) either for that matter. We are viewed as the detritus of society, the freaks. The unworthy, the monstrous, and now the potential rapists. Thanks.

Ms. Budapest and her followers deserve a pat on the back from big-box Christian churches — their rhetoric has probably driven more people from Paganism and/or Wicca than any fundamentalist rhetoric ever could, including this former Pagan. Nicely done. I hope Ms. Budapest is proud of herself. Her apology is not accepted.

I am not aware of this event, nor this situation. I am new to the Pagan/Wiccan lifestyle and practice as a solitary due to geographic issues. I will however share this: The first book I read about Wicca was written by Z Budapest, The Holy Book Of Women’s Mysteries. Frankly, it almost scared me away from Wicca and Paganism in general. I could not fathom how I was supposed to practice in away to the exclusion of men. It makes almost zero sense to me. I quite love the idea of the Divine Feminine and Divine Masculine meshing together in such a way as to become one single Divine being and love. Excluding transwomen is I feel no less bigoted than what we are seeing in politics today from the far right. As a woman (and mother of a lesbian) I find this attitude and behavior to be offensive in the extreme. I would hope the outcry over this makes her and her women think twice before doing this again. Bliss…

I disagree with you on this. I don’t pretend to be any sort of expert, but personally, I have reservations about the whole “transwoman” concept. No matter how much you rearrange the plumbing or how many hormone injections you get, you still have that pesky little Y chromosome. Genetically, you’re still male and that’s not going to change.

While I’m at it, I will also take exception with Dianic Wicca. As I understand it, and I admit that I’m a newbie, Wicca is about the polarity of Goddess and God, female and male. To totally exclude one or the other to me would be like trying to start you car with one battery post disconnected.

@Robert: “I have reservations about the whole “transwoman” concept…”

Robert, Transwomen aren’t a concept. Transwomen are real. It is an incredibly complicated, confusing and, I assume, scary thing to go through. The whole experience of not identifying with the body you were given.

But I don’t believe in excluding anyone from ritual practice. If one identifies them-self as FEMALE then they shouldn’t be excluded from a ritual honoring the female divine.

The Pagan community saying anyone isn’t “good enough” to do something is the pot calling the caldron “Black”

I agree with Stephen. In ancient times men had to be castrated first, but even then some religious practices consisted of born females only ; just as some religious practices consisted of males only. As a “born woman” I cry destrimination against being allowed to practice with only other “born females” and being expected to give transgender women who haven’t undergone surgery the same place as I in a religious cerrimony.
I also agree with Robert in that the Dianic belief that is practiced is way too one sided in that both Goddess and God are not worshipped in equal.
Instead of everyone crying foul and hatred toward Z. B. , why doesn’t someone start their own Dianic movement to include transgender women for next years PathenCon ? Wouldn’t that be more peaceful than throwing verbal and written stones at one o paganism’ elders !! ?

Whenever women (real women) want space for themselves, people (mostly men) cry “discrimination”! Please, cutting up your body and calling yourself a woman does not make it so.

The ancients had primarily separate rituals for men and women and Women’s Mysteries are largely Blood Mysteries. Transgendered males do not bleed, nor have they ever bled, so it’s not possible for them to connect to this type of magic.

Dianic Wicca does not exclude men, nor hate men.

Thank you, Z, for protecting our sacred space.

KC

as a woman and as someone who has transgender friends , I have to say I agree with Z Budapest on this one, a male is a male no matter the steps taken to change gender….. by genetics he is still male , now before you attack I agree that if a person goes through the process and becomes a woman then yes she has the right to call herself woman but not female the genetics just do not support it.

I think that any group has the right to include or exclude who they choose, would you have this same reaction if it were and initiatory group excluding anyone that was not initiated?

Dianics are Female orientated and they have chosen in their own group to exclude the trans-woman we should support their right to free will and choice. after all is that not some of the basics in our belief system.

the trans-gender women need to stand up and form a trans-gender group instead of feeling out down and out, after all the Dianic tradition and may other came to be because they did not fit or agree with those group before them.

it should be pointed out that Dianics are not male hating lesbians as they are being made out to be here and elsewhere. There are indeed happily married females who just do not share their sacred space with their husbands….

before you criticize you should learn a little more about the tradition and and their practices…..

A big WHOOT to Z and the Dianics for standing up for their beliefs and traditions

This discussion is a difficult one for me, because it strikes at the heart of an important topic. When is exclusivity acceptable? The line is different for many people, as shown here. We have all sorts of cultural rules that we use to tell ourselves when it is ok to exclude someone, and when it is not ok to exclude someone, and these cultural rules change as we cross communities and geographical boundaries.

To many, myself included, Z’s exclusion of Transwomen rings tone-deaf and damaging to a subset of our community that we feel has already faced more than its share of discrimination and burden.

I wonder though, if we would have the same reaction if Z had held a Transwomen only event instead of a Ciswomen only event. The criteria of exclusion is identical but the equation goes the other way. Most people wouldn’t.

I believe the reason for this has to do with cultural perception of concerns. It seems to make sense to us that a transwomen-only event makes sense because the boundaries defining a transwoman also define a very specific shared experience that ciswomen do not share. The reason the reverse bothers us is that we feel transwomen and ciswomen *do* share the general experience of being a woman, so the exclusion seems prejudicial instead of rational.

I’ve thought a lot about this over the years, largely because I’m a member and a leader in the Brotherhood of the Phoenix, an organization created by and for gay, bisexual, and transgender men who love men. It’s an awfully specific criterion. When the Brotherhood was starting there were several voices in the Chicago community very vocally protesting the need or acceptability of such an organization. … To be continued…

… Continued …

I don’t put our exclusivity on the same level as Z’s, largely because we allow individuals to self-determine whether or not they fit our criterion, and because we make an effort to hold open-to-all events as well as our men-who-love-men-only events. But at the end of the day, we also create an exclusive barrier that is sure to offend at least a few people.

I don’t agree with Z’s decision, but I’m not a Diannic Ciswoman. I don’t know why she feels there is a ethically valid exclusionary line between genetic women and ciswomen. Although I think it’s prejudicial and ignorant to create an exclusion that is potentially damaging to a great many people, I also have to say that she has a right to choose who she invites into her circle and initiates into her tradition.

Whether or not Pantheacon should implicitly support this exclusion is another question. I haven’t formed a strong opinion on the matter yet, but either way the event organizers are treading on dynamite laden waters, and I will almost always favor on the side of a permissive choice over a restrictive choice when the ethical waters are not clearly or easily defined.

I’m Cismale. Transger women are women to my mind and as a community we shouldn’t be discriminating especially against those who are vulnerable and have probably suffered exclusion and abuse outside our community and felt that we would treat them with respect and kindness, it’s viscious and cruel.
I’ve been reading Z’s blog and perused some of her writings lately, i’m not going to quote her at all but the statement that she is not anti-male is patently false. She paints all men with an extra broad brush and it’s an ugly painting. If I took one of a dozen statements she has made containg the phrase ‘all men’ and substituted ‘all women’ my wife would slap me before I finished a single one of them. I have no problem with feminism or female-only ritual practices but I would conjecture that if one beleives that she is not anti-male and bigoted one is simply not paying attention to her writings or is being intellectually dishonest. It seems to me that her paranoid and hateful view of men is spilling over onto the transgender community. I understand she has made great contributions to our community but for me that doesn’t mitigate promoting hatred. I am utterly disgusted with her.

I think the greater question, with relation to ritual space, is why an exclusion is taking place.

People are free to do whatever they want in their personal practices, but when we step into community space and present community workshops and rituals, I think we have a greater responsibility to each other.

If someone doesn’t want to be inclusive, well, we can’t stop them. My concerns here are less about what Z is doing and more about what PantheaCon is doing. It’s great that there are folks attending like Thorn who are willing to protest and make their disagreements known.

But why isn’t anyone else stepping forward to hold a more open Dianic rite? Did the con organizers encourage this? Are there Dianics who are willing to take up that banner? Are there transwomen who are willing to take up that banner?

I encourage those who are dismayed and hurt by what has happened here to organize your own open circles and rituals. I’d be doing that here, if it was happening in my community and it was my issue. I’ve already started working on promoting tolerance, pluralism, and respect in other communities I move in.

Protesting’s great, but… it’s only a start. Be the change you want to see in the world. I’m not Dianic, but I’d be happy to circle with anyone who shared the core values of Wicca, no matter what their sex or gender.

@ Robert and E:

Statements like these:

“I don’t pretend to be any sort of expert, but personally, I have reservations about the whole “transwoman” concept. No matter how much you rearrange the plumbing or how many hormone injections you get, you still have that pesky little Y chromosome. Genetically, you’re still male and that’s not going to change.”

“as a woman and as someone who has transgender friends , I have to say I agree with Z Budapest on this one, a male is a male no matter the steps taken to change gender….. by genetics he is still male , now before you attack I agree that if a person goes through the process and becomes a woman then yes she has the right to call herself woman but not female the genetics just do not support it. ”

Show a vast lack of understanding for both the sexual developmental processes (I’m talking about the interplay of genetics and environment on internal and external anatomy during prenatal development), and the difference between sex and gender.

I doubt there’s anything I could say about the second that would make much of a difference in either of your minds, as you seem to place a lot more importance on the physical (on the genetics no less, probably the least relevant level of sex) than anything else.

Even on the purely anatomical level, however, going by a person’s genetic sex makes very little sense to me. Leaving aside the fact that not all individuals have either an X and a Y or two X sex chromosomes (there are individuals who are genetically XXX, XXY, XYY, and X0 – as in just the one X chromosome – as well), there’s no guarantee that an individual who does have an XX or an XY genotype will fit into anything resembling the narrow boxes we tend to label “male” and “female” (and again, I want to make it clear that I am referring to the internal and external anatomy these individuals are born with, given to these individuals by nature).

(Continued…)

XY individuals with androgen insensitivity syndrome (and this is a general description. Just as with biological sex, there is always plenty of variation beyond the general description) will have testes (internal, in the position where one might expect to find ovaries in a “typical” female), but no Wolffian or Müllerian system (the external reproductive tract made up of the epididymis, vas deferens, etc., and the fallopian tubes, uterus, cervix, etc. respectively), the urethra primordia will develop in the female pattern, and the external genitalia will develop in the female pattern. Such individuals are often tall and lean with large breasts and gorgeous skin (think supermodel)

An XX (so “genetically female” and thus presumably considered female by both of you) individual with a a wild-type attached SRY gene on one of the X chromosomes will develop testes, have a wolffian system (the male pattern) but not müllerian system (the female pattern), male pattern urethra primordia and male pattern external genitalia, male secondary sexual characteristics. So a man (at least until a karyotype shows that he doesn’t meet the all important genetic criteria, right?)

(Continued…)

An XY (genetically male) individual with mutation in one little gene on the Y chromosome (that SRY gene again) so that one little protein isn’t coded for correctly will develop ovaries, have a müllerian system and no wolffian system, female pattern urethra primordia, female pattern external genitalia, and female secondary sexual characteristics, but with that “pesky Y chromosome” clearly this is a man, right?

Given the extraordinary amount of variation in biological sex (and contrary to popular statements, this really isn’t all that rare. Some estimate that 1 in every 100 individuals will be born intersex in some way. How many people would that be in your town?), I’m not sure I’m in any position to speak to an individuals biological sex (male or female), let alone try to make statements about if some one is a man or a woman.

If the Dianic Women’s Mysteries consist primarily of blood mysteries, then I can understand that they may not be appropriate for those who don’t bleed. This, to my mind, is not a discrimination against transwomen because they are trans*, because the exclusion would also apply to cismen, transmen, ciswomen who for whatever reason (surgery, hormonal problems, even anemia) do not have periods, children, and people like me who do bleed every month but don’t see it as anything to celebrate.

To ilustrate my point, I’m going to use an example that doesn’t involve womanhood, but contains the same potential for misinterpretation as discrimination. There was on the website Witchvox a tradition profile entered for a coven that described itself as aimed at gay and bisexual men. Straight men were not excluded *because they were straight*, but because the rituals included largely homoerotic material, and a straight man would either feel uncomfortable or simply not understand the spiritual significance that the other coven members experience.

To conclude therefore, it is because someone who doesn’t experience menstrual bleeding as a deep mystical sensation won’t fit in in a Dianic coven, rather than rampant transphobia, that women who don’t bleed are excluded. Or I would hope so, anyway.

I just had a strange thought.
Men lose testosterone as they get older. Does that make them less male? If they have to take hormone therapy are they less male?
and what if a woman is baren? or if she never menstrates? is she less female? Sometimes when a woman weighs too much or too little, they no longer menstrate. Are they less female?
Transgenders aren’t the only persons who take hormone therapy.
Human sexuality is far more complex than male and female.

I am saddened to see this an issue in 2012 and in paganism of all things. I don’t think the issue here is about restrictions as much as it is about what Z. Budapest has said about what a woman “really” is. Being a woman is not solely about what is between a persons legs. Thank you Z. Budpest for reducing womanhood to her sexual organs. She’s done exactly what men have been doing for over 2000 years. Ironic considering supression and inequality is exactly why she created the Dianic in the first place.

in my own opinion, spirit matters much more than plumbing, but I do not follow Dianic tradition, so my opinion matters little in this… it’s not my ritual… if it were, trans-women would be welcome… but then, so would men

Honestly, this whole thing makes me really angry. The issue is not understanding what transgender is.

I can’t even… I’m almost too angry to type.

I can understand why the Dianic movement started, but wasn’t the purpose of it and feminism to reach equality? Now it seems we have gone backwards. I have much respect for Z. Budepest and what she accomplished, but this pisses me off.

I have no involvement in PantheaCon and thus no experience to speak from in this whole incident, but from what i’ve read on a good many pro-trans-pagan blogs, the issue is less ‘trans women being excluded’ and more ‘trans women being treated like they’re not women’. There is a difference, and it can be seen even here with comments like ‘Whenever women (real women) want space for themselves, people (mostly men) cry “discrimination”! Please, cutting up your body and calling yourself a woman does not make it so.’
That is not what transgender means. It never has been. It’s offensive and ignorant to pretend it is. I’ll agree there’s plenty of times men shout ‘discrimination’ for no good reason, but this is not one of those times.

I do not personally have a problem with a ritual based on the concept of ‘being able to bleed from the uterus’ or whatever the cis-requirement is… as long as transgender men are then allowed. (Yes, trans men, as in people labelled female at birth but who nonetheless identify as men. It exists both ways! Would you allow a person who identifies as man, acts like a man, probably even looks like a man – but was labelled ‘girl’ at birth, has body parts typically associated with women, and still menstruates – at your ‘women-only’ rituals? If yes, then i have no problem with you. If no, then you are indeed being discriminatory.)

I’m furious. To make an admission to the world that you do not feel you were born to the right sex is a HUGE undertaking and already is not viewed as an “acceptable” idea in society at large. I came to witchcraft partially b/c I was angry at a mainstream that already doesn’t include women’s rights (think wage-earnings) and desperately wanted to connect to female deity. To not identify with one’s gender is a moment of awakening and, I would think, a moment to want to connect with who you DO identify with. To me, this has NOTHING to do with how you were born and what stupid plumbing you have, but how you FEEL you relate. I didn’t get my period for over 5 years… should I not be included in women’s mysteries?! Give me a break. Z needs to get over herself and her insecurities and hold a private ritual somewhere else… where other close-minded “ciswomen” can join her. The goddess knows who you are in your heart… and can see bigotry in all its nastiness without the help of Z, or others who are so narrow-minded. Get over it. It’s 2012 and Santorum and the GOP don’t need any help.

I tend to look at people based not on their race, or sex, but their spirits– while many of us have experienced predominately masculine or feminine lives in the past, and are so inclined to certain behaviors, we are all formed from a unification of masculine and feminine energies. As such, refusal to accept someone based on their physical energy is perhaps a tad shallow, but relative regarding the nature of ritual being performed. Transgender women do not have periods and other such physical characteristics of genetic women. They also have had to endure more confusion– hormonal(physical), and emotional– that might conflict with the balance of ritual.

I’m wondering why this is really an issue at all. As pagans, our rituals and paths extend beyond us indefinitely, not just on Saturdays or Sundays. And, as with time, we do not limit our practices to a space. I think there is a growing theme of responsibility of inclusion among traditions these days that give too much sway to the P.C. Just because someone is practicing a specialized ritual, that does not keep you from practicing one of your own– or gathering others to perform one. There is no reason transgender women/men can not gather in an area of their own during this ritual to perform one of a similar nature, or to enhance it. So long as all remains possitive, and supportive, the only outcome can be forward.

Our primary purpose as pagans is to engage ourselves in respect– respect for the earth, and the systems of life, and eachother. We are all heading in the same direction, albeit on different paths. Rather than feeling hurt, or expressing oneself negatively in regard to a choice or exclusion, respect the ritual of another, respect the path of another, and let’s help eachother as we seek to strengthen our spirits and souls as we trudge along to enlightenment, perfection, heaven, nirvana(or whatever you want to call it).

@Raistas:

I could be mistaken, but I suspect that for a lot of people the issue is less that there is a ritual that excludes some people, and more about the bigoted (and frankly ignorant) manner in which it was gone about.

It would be one thing for someone to organize a ritual surrounding a particular (or several particular) process or event or what have you that is specific to those women who fit fairly strict standards of a “biological female” or whatever, such as menstruation or childbirth (though this of course brings up the question of whether those women who don’t menstruate for reasons other than the plumbing they were born with), and respectfully ask that those individuals who don’t experience these things not attend.

But that isn’t really what’s been done. Instead it has turned into wanting only “real women” to attend, and then makes all sorts of judgments about who such a label includes.

And frankly, given the description “genetic women” (which you yourself and a few other commenters have used as well), those judgments seem to be based largely outside of any reasonable understanding of biological science (if you would like a basic overview of why using genetic sex as the basis of what constitutes a “real woman” even if you are speaking solely about biological sex, I encourage you to read comments 16, 17, and 18 which explain just that).

(Continued)

Personally, based upon my both my scientific understanding and my psychological understanding (supported by my own experiences and conversations with others, though this is of course merely anecdotal evidence, and thus of less weight), I reject the concept of a male/female dichotomy.

Personally, I prefer a view that puts sex and gender on two separate continua not necessarily dependent upon one another, though there is often a correlation between the two (with strengths, interests, and other cognitive factors that we tend to assign to one or the other sex or gender within the binary existing on their own spectra, similarly loosely correlated but not dependent upon the sex and gender continua), but that is simply my own perspective, and not founded in concrete evidence.

That the sex and gender binaries are false is much more easily supported.

If you think males are xy and females are xx, and that’s all there is to it, I would invite you to do some research. There are several possible chromosome combinations. There are women (rather rarely) with the xxx chromosome combination. There are (less rarely) women who have the xy chromosome combination, with an “SRY translocation.” These women have the usual female genitalia, but they cannot have children–we happen to have a movie star in the USA who is just such a woman, but who does not talk about it in interviews.

Nature is hardly ever “black and white,” “this way or that way.” I trust that some day, people will set aside their fears and uncertainty about the incredible, wonderful diversity of Nature, and embrace it. Isn’t that what earth-based spirituality is about?

I support these women’s right to have a ritual that is formed based on their beliefs. If that excludes some others, so be it. I am tired of the idea that because we are Pagans that means we must accept everything, agree with everything and generally have no defining lines in what we do. I don’t see why this group should have to have genetic men in their rituals when their beliefs are keyed to genetic women. I have no problems with a transgendered individual, but rather than insisting that they be included in a belief system that clearly does not support them, why not make up their own group? There is nothing wrong with exclusion based on belief. Otherwise, we are just a hodge-podge of “do whatever”, and why is that necessary? If Pagans are truly an umbrella spirituality, why isn’t there room for lots of factions and practices? If we are so accepting and diverse, where is the right for the Dianics to do their thing? Remember when girls were petitioning to make it necessary for Boy Scouts to accept them, too? That’s nonsense, that’s why it’s BOY Scouts….I’m pretty sure there is enough room for all beliefs in Paganism, don’t start pushing homogenized belief systems on everyone! The Dianics are who they are, go find another ritual to participate in, I’m sure there were tons of them at the convention. I’d love it in this world if people were just a tad less easily offended! No one is saying transgendered people are LESS human, or LESS in anyway…they simply aren’t female. I don’t care what operation you do or how many hormones you take, it doesn’t change it, anymore than someone jamming dentist-made fangs on them makes them a real vampire. I want them to be comfortable with who they are, sure, and if they are happy then I’m happy for them….but don’t try to make it what it isn’t. That’s just fantasy.

I have attended Pcon the past two years, so here is some personal experience. Two years ago, I attended Z’s ritual. Let me say this, it is not about what plumbing you are born with or what chromosomes you have, but a celebration of bleeding and giving life through a womb. You literally bless your breasts for feeding a child, and bless your belly for being able to carry the child. While I agree the wording and restrictions are not needed, all you have to do is post in the program that this is a sky clad ritual, which it is stated, and see how many men we had line up two years ago.

That being said, I love and respect Thorne, attended every one of her classes and rituals, and while I understand her viewpoint of hatred, there were other rituals that were limited with rules, not just this one. So for the good of the group, either allow limitations or don’t, but don’t fuss at one group because it pertains to you.

What saddens me is a dear friend of mine (girl) called me up three weeks before Pcon to ask me to attend this ritual with her because she was finally able to accept her body and nudity in public and wanted to celebrate the ability to give life. Sadly, like me, she respects Thorne as well and decided against going to the ritual to avoid the controversy. We both had friends attend the ritual and friends who stood silently in protest. One of our gay male friends proudly stated he would have walked us in even though he was in the stand in. That is love, and this is what the weekend was supposed to be about. Loving each other, no matter what.

There are both negative and positive sides to this controversy. While the negativity and hatred that Thorne is upset about is completely justifiable, Z should be able to hold her ancient ritual at her discrection with respect from the community.

Hey, sounds just like a bunch of right-wing fundamentalists–just goes to show why religion should be a very private, personal thing and why I will remain a ‘’solitary practitioner.” Whenever it becomes a group thing the bullshit starts, usually with some zealot that takes some arcane point way too seriously. In fact, you could definitely say that all the religious wars down through history were started by people taking religion way too seriously. On the other hand, why bother with it at all if one doesn’t take it serious? A big point in favor of the atheists. However, like most humans I will continue to believe in an unseen higher power just because it makes me feel better.

As much as I don’t think transwomen should be excluded from an event, I also think that the coven can hold restrictions how they see fit. I don’t agree with it, but they have the right I suppose.

All that this comes down to is discrimination. If you want to exclude a certain group from a ritual, that is your right, but not at a public place. This reminds me of the issues that were faced when I was christian.

Progress, far from consisting in change, depends on retentiveness. When change is absolute there remains no being to improve and no direction is set for possible improvement: and when experience is not retained, as among savages, infancy is perpetual. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. ~George Santayana~

To me genetic woman and trans woman, both have woman in the name so let them participate

I believe that the event organizers should have addressed all the concerns prior to the event.While I do believe in female only rites and male only rites and the rite of any group to be as exclusive or inclusive as they want,they should make this clear before the event is held and be upfront with the organizers beforehand.Hate will only bring more hate to the group preaching it(rule of three).So what to do simple let the trans women hold their own rite!Their own group!!This is one of the reasons I practice as a solitary.It’s hard enough to find the God or Goddess within without the distractions.

If every individual has to pay the same amount of money to partake in a convention or gain admission to the convention then every individual regardless of gender has the right to participate in any activities said convention is offering.
I believe that everyone is entitled to practice their religious beliefs BUT if one decides to hold a service at a paid admission to a convention then they should not exclude anyone. By excluding a group for whatever the reason may be just opens that religious group to controversy.

I once walked out of a ritual that Z. Budapest was leading, because she was using everyone’s energy to “cast a curse”, (her words). She did not publicly state ahead of time that she intended to use the circle’s energy to do this, thus giving the attendees the choice to participate or not. Why is she still considered a leader in the Pagan community? She demonstrates again that her ethics are highly questionable, her sense of politics has all the finesse of a sledgehammer, and she is totally lacking in compassion or sensitivity. Far from working to overcome the Patriarchy, she works only to perpetuate it. Pathetic.

I read in these comments that a transgender male is still a male. Well, is it the physical body we are dealing with in these rituals or our spirits/souls? Does anyone take into account what the transgenders soul/spirit identifies with? Obviously, it is not that of the male gender if they are transgender in the first place.

I have a hard time believing that any Goddesses or Gods would go around “lifting the skirt” of all members in a ritual just to make sure they have the “correct” plumbing.

This type of exclusion and finger pointing is what drove me away from the Christian faith. I certainly hope it doesn’t continue here and that those in charge of these things can find a loving resolution to this matter.

At one point I felt more people arriving. Rabbit had brought people from her ritual to hold space between the two groups. They sang We All Come From the Goddess, and we sang it along with them. They alternated it with another beautiful chant of Thorn’s. Women inside were also singing We All Come From the Goddess. Z came out and spoke. She apologized for hurting anyone, and she upheld her right to perform her rites. I couldn’t see any response, except when Rabbit admonished Z for forthrightly addressing “your side.” She told her, “There are no sides,” which sounded cosmic and everything, but unconvincing under the circumstances. We weren’t in Rumi’s field yet, where there is no judgment, no rebuke. People came to “take a stand” and there was no mistaking the opposition.
I can’t remember what Z said, but here is her written statement: “I know you are here for me. I come out to say something to all of you. I am sorry if I have hurt anyone’s feelings. I apologize. I stand for your right of sacred space for the trans community. I stand with my life’s work for the women to have the right to their sacred space equally. I have supported PantheaCon goals for unity and diversity for the 18 years this conference has existed and an opportunity to have everyone to express themselves in a safe place. Peace.” This apology, as difficult as it was for a proud Hungarian priestess to make, has barely been acknowledged in the blogosphere rants, or it has been rejected, for the most part, because she did not back down on the parameters of her rituals.
http://www.sourcememory.net/veleda/?p=486

One other thing

I believe that WOMEN the ONLY group of humans BORN into a society that has RESERVED US as sex and FOR sex (for the patriarchy) who has a right to decide what is and is not female.

Transwomen who have the surgery, or not, may feel that they are women all day night and year. BUT THEY ARE NOT FEMALE they will NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER be female and the issues and struggles they face, many are SPECIFIC to being trans, some are byproducts of adopting the identity of the class of humans reserved as/for sex, the sexclass, woman.

Born women, stop this cis crap its othering and messed up, have issues and struggles that are SPECIFIC to being BORN FEMALE not born MALE. We should have the right to say to transwomen, sister we respect you but you must found your own, go with our blessing and support, and that be the end of it!

Some born women DO NOT LIKE transwomen, some born women don’t like men in female face much the same way I as a black woman do not like whites in blackface. We need to accept that and get the heck on to tackling the PROBLEM. WOMEN, FEMALES are not THE problem, this patriarchal paternalistic othering society and world culture is the dang problem! Transwomen staging protests, taking photos of women going into a ritual (intimidation!!!) and more is just evidence to me that this is not the group of humans I desire to form community with by and large when it comes to the politics that bind the feminine and the female.

There is a time for “diversity” (whatever that means to u) and a time for being among those you identify with. Transwomen may identify as women and identify with the female, born women should be free to NOT identify with transwomen and NOT see themselves in transwomen. It is just disrespectful to bash women for wanting community among those they identify with!

A Dianic wiccan celebrates Blood Mysteries. This is simply about women born as women sharing and celebrating their rites of passage, their creative ability to bleed, to give birth to children and to feed them from their own bodies.
It’s the same as if men had Semen Mysteries celebrating their rites of passage and their creative ability to father children(and perhaps they do- I have no idea as I’ve never been invited, as a woman, to participate).
My question are these- if there were such mysteries, would a transgendered female to male man be allowed to participate as they cannot actually produce semen and father children? And also if they were denied inclusion to one specific ritual honoring and blessing this would this create the same response ? I don’t believe it would.

I studied with a Dianic group for several years. Z was not the leader of this group, and so I cannot write about her or her intentions. I am simply fulfilling my desire to add my Dianic experience to this conversation. The group I was part of excluded anyone that was not born female and continually experienced themselves and identified with being wholly female.

This was based on the idea of blood mystery experiences as well as shared experiences of being treated as females are treated in our society. These things really ARE mysteries, meaning they cannot be taught but only experienced. Clearly as a “woman born woman” my journey to womanhood was vastly different than that of a transwoman, for better or worse. Although I chose not to be initiated into this group when invited to do so, there were many things I treasured and continue to treasure about this type of “birds of a feather” sacred space.

I would invite transwomen to consider creating a group or religion based solely on their biologic function, shared experiences and THEIR journey to womanhood. Those who have not participated in such a thing are missing out on a beautiful and sacred experience. It would be my honor to hear about those experiences if there were some that were inclined to share, but I would never expect or even want to be included in the actual sacred space or their rituals.

It is my sincerest hope that one day we as Pagans will come into full allowance of each other’s chosen path, whether or not we agree with it or find reason in it. Although I am saddened to see anyone feeling hurt, I doubt very much that there is a stance any group could take that would not offend someone, somewhere.

As a side note, many if not most of the women in my Dianic group also had rituals and traditions they upheld and took part in that included the men, boys and trans folk in their lives.

Leave the Crone (Z) alone, already. Good grief…we should be respecting (even if we don’t agree with) our elders, shouldn’t we? All of us have our own beliefs for a reason, and quite frankly….there’s room enough for all of us without “in fighting”. Live and let live, worship and let worship…if you don’t like how a ritual is run by a leader, don’t participate in that one. Simple.

Why do we have to try and demand that everyone accept everyone else? Not everyone is going to accept me and my “ways” and THAT’S OKAY WITH ME!

Love and Light to all…

While I respect one’s right to be exclusive, I do not believe that there should be private rituals in a public gathering. If you want to hold a “this only” or “that only” ritual, find a private place to hold it. Then you can be as exclusive as you want without the hurt feelings by those who paid the same price as everyone else for the public gathering.
With that being said, I believe transwomen are just as woman & female as ciswomen. They may not have menstrual cycles & may not be able to carry a life within their bodies, but, then again, there are ciswomen who have that same circumstance, albeit for different reasons. So, should a ciswoman be excluded because she has never experienced, nor will she ever, the gift of bringing life into this work or the pain/discomfort of a menstrual cycle??
The same goes for transmen. They are just as male as cismen. The only thing is that (correct me if I’m wrong) they cannot help to create life as cismen can.
In my opinion (as others have stated), gender is more than what you’re born with between your legs. It’s who you identify as. If you’re born a male, but feel you should’ve been born female & identify as being female, then you are female. The same goes for those who are born female, but felt they should’ve been born male.
We, as a people & a community, need to stop looking at people on a physical level & start looking at them on a spiritual level. It’s our spirit that makes us who we are.

Well, once again it is clear that the oppressed can be the best oppressors. Are we REALLY having this conversation in 2012??!! Is Z Budapest the female Pope or something?!! This was a “Public” event. It was an oportunity for education and growth as a community. It was an opportunity for Dianic Wiccans to show others how they practice and what they believe. Unfortunately it has now de-volved into negativity, hurt feelings and more in-fighting. This is EXACTLY why I will always be a Solitary practitioner. If you want to have a “public” ritual, have one. If you want to be exclusive, you can’t have it be a “public” ritual. Period. (and pardon the punn)

While I can understand Dianic Wiccans practicing IN PRIVATE and not allowing trans gendered females, when it comes to a ritual IN PUBLIC it should be open to everyone and not just a select few. I can respect Z Budapest’s choice but if you are holding a public riual at a convention, everyone should be allowed to attend.

I was once excluded from a gay male ritual because I was a straight male. It hurt, I felt disciminated against and I had to stand away from the group and watch as the ritual was done. But as I watched, I learned something. I learned about my friends’ pain that comes from living in a straight-oriented society.

I also learned from this experience that there are rituals that are specific to certain groups of people. I think there are times when a ritual, even one offered at a festival, can be oriented to specific groups, such as cis-women. For instance, if the energy in the ritual is raised from the uterus, how can a male-born person do that?

Also, I think the oppression cis-women experience is just a different kind of oppression that trans-women know…. just like how my experience of privilige as a straight male did not fit into the ritual designed for the oppression known by my gay friends.

If Z’s ritual was the only ritual held at Pantheacon presented, this would be discrimination. But since there were many rituals, having just one for cis-women is not discrimination, but a ritual for a specific group. As a straight male, I would not be able to go either. But there would be other rituals that I, and the trans-women, could go to.

But…. I think the answer to this problem at Pantheacon is obvious– its time to bring in someone other than Z who is willing to lead a women’s ritual that is inclusive of cis- and trans-women.

I have never been to Pantheacon, however this exclusivity is the main reason I left a coven. Although the members (all female) said they would at some time in the future allow men, it was obvious to me that it was not going to happen if they had anything to say about it. My husband and I practice together usually. To have him excluded was just wrong and unfair. I am not Dianic. I worship both male and female dieties.

I’m new to Wicca and a solitary as well and all that I have been studying and reading that “we” (the community) should be tolerant of all people. Wouldn’t that include transgender as well and not just religious out looks? How could some not be willing to include others because society has labeled them “transwoman” but the Goddess has excepted them? Now this is just my opinion but I feel this puts all of us in a bad light, we shouldn’t be so negative to any. I feel this whole event is why some have a problem with the Pagan/Wiccan path. I know it’s a little naive outlook but it’s an honest one.

I think Any group has the right to exclude ANYONE they wish from a Private ceremony. That being said, NO group should come to a Public place and perform a Private ceremony. Keep the Mysteries for your group and bring a service that can be shared with Everyone for the Public gathering. Not doing so is an insult to others, to themselves and an unforgiveable insult to the Higher Powers.

Every fertilized egg in the womb has the potential to become female if certain conditions are not met while in the womb. Trans-gender people feel certain that something went astray inside the womb. I am an inclusive person and would not join a coven or group that discriminated against either female or male. Don’t we see other hateful groups such as the angry sky god cults of christianity, judaism, islam, and even hinduism seek to promote one gender over another? To create life requires both genders yet they diminish the role of the female to nothing. Are men not also creations and children of the goddess? A transgender female was once a female egg in the womb. She got a dose of the wrong hormones and changed into something she did not seek to be. I don’t know about the rest of you, but I welcome her and claim her as my sister. Discrimination is ugly to me.

One statement over all others caught my attention:

“before you criticize you should learn a little more about the tradition and and their practices…..”

But, to do this, wouldn’t you have to know what it is that they do? And, how do you learn what they do if they will not share their practices you?

“Repect your Elders” some one said. However, more Age does not always translate into more Wisdom. So, is this Budapest person an Elder? Or merely elder?

Yes, its unfortunate that exclusivity was insisted on in a public ritual. But considering the group this shouldn’t have been a big surprise..there are many wiccan/pagan groups that welcome transgendered into their rituals/events..And it makes sense to me to search for those who are welcome and accepting whether than to crash upon the rocks of those few who do not.

As for the comment about men not bleeding… I have a friend who DOES bleed. he doesn’t have female parts, so he’s come close to dying from the build up in his body.

but internally, he has female parts.

Where would you class him?

I’m relatively new to this but is it a matter of male vs female energy? Can genetics change a persons energetic field?

This is terrible. What if the transgender woman who loves the goddess and has gone through MUCH PAIN to become a woman so they can participate as a woman is now denied by other women? Saying no to them is not so much different than that which Evangelical Christian church’s do where only men are entitled to teach and express gods ideas, as if the women were not of equal faith. Such thinking is of a human nature not divine. If you are transgender and identify more with the feminine aspect of the divine I am sure the goddess is happy to embrace you even if you once had a beard. God/Goddess know our hearts, our faith, our devotion and they love us regardless of our gender. A devout transgender woman is loved just as much by the goddess as a genetic woman. And genetic woman who wish to exclude them from experiencing the female aspect of the divine lack faith in my opinion.

To some, Z is an Elder, to me, she is an elder (as in older than me). By respecting elders and others in this case, I specifically mean: To accept that this is their opinion and view on what they believe whether I agree with this person, group, country or not. How I respond to those opinions, etc…is then up to me, the individual.

As is whether I participate in promoting that opinion or participate in any group that promotes that opinion. Not all of us insist on everyone agreeing with us or including us in everything! And that’s okay…if we all accepted everyone and everything, we’d all turn out grey, dull and lifeless. Life is full of multiple colors!

I am a Transgendered Lady. I follow the Wiccan Rede–An it harms none do as you will–. I see this as a group that doesn’t believe in the Rede. If they did they would not cause this kind of pain on others. If this is how they want to be then I would rather not be a part of this group. Being a Trans Woman I have had enough pain from others over the years I would not want to suffer more at their hands. I try always to have an open mind and a positive spirit towards all. Thats what the God and Goddess would have me to do. They show me love, compasion, careing, for all and the expect me to do the same. Yes at times it maybe hard to do yet they always show me they way. Love and Peace to all.

Public means PUBLIC! Period. End of discussion! If they want to do an exclusive ritual then they should NOT do it at PantheaCon. If anyone is prohibited from participating, then it has no place in a PUBLIC gathering. Z Budapest is nothing but a hate-monger, which goes against ANY pagan religion. She has no right being at PantheaCon, and the organisers have no right to cause anyone to be excluded from any ritual therein offered! Which is why I will never attend any future PantheaCon.

Okay.. I mean this should never have to come up..but it is a lesson on human behavior.. We don’t need in this century to discriminate agaisnt no one. And if the don’t want our transgender community or gay ..why pretend. As a mother and a pagan of a transgender child and Godmother of a gay child..we need to stop adopting attitude left over from our former religions or society in general WE NEED TO REMEMBER AS PAGANS they don’t really care for us either…and to do like those who dominate the religious scene is bad medicine..does not help us spiritually and dishonors the dieties we worship..if you look through look fancied male and female..read take a look HOW DO YOU THINK THEY VEIW ALL THIS FIGHTING? Grow up and act like you got some sense and think before you speak. I getting tired of the nonsense.. It is also why perfer to love and worship the dieties on my own for now.

As for transgendered persons, this is their personal business. Since when do people interfere with the personal business of others. Their bodies are their bodies. They can do what they want with their bodies. If a person wants to change the gender of their personal bodies, well, then so be it. I did tell a few transgendered persons that it takes more strength, fortitude and courage to be true to themselfs, than to knuckle under and be misserable. One such transgender person said in reply “I really needed to hear that.” Many transgendered persons are “The bravest of the brave!” Thank you. There should be a ritual about the courage and bravery of the transgendered persons.

After reading the article and leaving my comment solely based on the article, I looked up Mz. Budapest’s Blog and read several items there. I have to say that I was shocked to the point of being sickened by her attitude. The distrust, fear and outright hatred she holds and freely expresses for all Males is quite daunting in it’s savage ferosity. Is THIS typical of those invited to PantheaCon? I have never been to one yet, and if THIS (based on her own words on her own Blog) is the type of people that are Invited to hold ritual, then I don’t want to.

I don’t agree with this at all. I believe that being a witch and being a specific gender don’t have much to do with each other, but that may be because in my practice I put equal emphasis on both aspects of deity. My personal belief is that one cannot exist without the other, and both support and complement each other. Z Budapest’s decision to ban trans-females bothers me greatly- we cannot control whether we are born male or female, but we have complete control over our decision to honor the Goddess as well as the God. While this decision is completely in her control and is her right as an individual following her own path, I believe that, speaking for myself, morally and ethically, this is not right.

So although no one has actually come out and said this (despite mine and others’ comments on the topic), I am going to go ahead and assume from here on out that where people say “genetic women” what they really mean is “cis women” (barring of course those comments that mention that “pesky Y chromosome, which suggests that they do in fact mean genetic women, which of course makes very little sense as a requirement for rites based on Blood Mysteries, but whatever), even though the two are far from synonymous. Anyway…

@Jane and Meadowhawk:

I’m curious (and I mean that sincerely, as I do not actually know the answer to this question), are women who are barren or who have had hysterectomies, or who are otherwise unable to bear children or experience monthly bleeding cycles for one reason or another, but who are still undeniably ciswomen, similarly excluded from these rituals?

(Continued)

@Star:

I feel no moral or ethical compunction to respect *anyone.* Respect is earned, and simple age is not enough to earn it.

That being said, with very few exceptions, I do believe in acting respectfully towards most everyone (age does not factor into this. I don’t believe a young person is less deserving of respectful behavior than and older person, and I think ageism against the young is as abhorrent against the older, and unfortunately pretty well accepted in this and many other cultures).

Respectful behavior does not, however, include letting others do and say as they please without responding to it if I think it’s wrong. My moral code does not allow me to sit silent in the face of what I consider to be a case of clear bigotry and ignorance simply out of an effort to “act respectfully” or “show respect” for someone.

All that being said, I have yet to come down on one side or another as for whether I think it is acceptable for a group to exclude some people from a ritual based on their plumbing. My stated issues with the event (as well as with many of the comments) are with the incredibly disrespectful way in which it was handled, with all sorts of judgments as to who is a “real woman” based on (from what I can tell) no solid scientific or psychological principles, and with the extreme ignorance displayed on the topic of what constitutes a biological female (as I have detailed out in previous of my comments).

I’m a barren (as far as I and my husband can contest, lol) woman. I stand by my opinion. I am no less of a woman than one who has given birth. My experience of my Godess and my God is not contingent upon my ability to give birth.

I don’t believe an individual’s sex or gender status is dependent upon their ability to give birth. My point was simply that if the reasoning is that transwomen can’t experience these things and so can’t be included in rituals where those things are the focus, then unless ciswomen (or “genetic women,” but I think I’ve harped enough on my issue with that particular phrasing…) who are similarly unable to experience these things are also excluded, the whole thing doesn’t really hold up.

Personally, I reject the entire male/female binary (including the idea of “male” and “female” energies), and frankly the idea of binaries in general isn’t well supported by the vast majority of nature (including any indepth look at genetic and anatomical variation within human beings as relates to sex). This idea is somewhat unpopular in many parts of the (at least Wiccan and Wiccan-influenced) pagan community, but it’s a pretty central part of my own philosophy (derived from my own study of the scientific and psychological literature on the subject).

Frankly I don’t believe I have much right (or basis) in saying that *anyone* is or isn’t a man or a woman (or however else an individual might identify).

I hope that has been clear in my posts :]

Ok, I have no idea what cis-woman means. Followed closely by “don’t care.” If you are holding a ritual in a PUBLIC setting, then you are willing to modify your ritual to be all inclusive. Next, this was a problem last time at PantheaCon, so they are doing it again? The Wiccan Rede states “In perfect Love and Perfect Trust” and “And Ye harm none, do what ye will.” No where does it state that it is gender specific and they are harming someone. The funniest part is that in some cultures, they would be considered the embodiment of the Divine being both male and female. Food for thought.

That being said…what is the difference if an individual identifies with being female (trans or not) or is a “traditional” (XX chromosome) female? We (females) have enough on our plates without going around burning bridges with allies. Trans-people (my term) are worse off than “normal” people since they don’t really fit in with either gender.

Seriously, there is enough Hate/Negativity in the world without adding to it. Homosexuals can’t even get married in my state (NY), and why? Because they don’t follow the “Norm.” This is just more of the same.

Response to Sha:

I sincerely respect your opinion. My point in the last posts being this: We must all discern for ourselves and act accordingly to our conscience in the light of Godde, however we personally define the Divine.

We must all decide for ourselves what we can and cannot accept, and we are ultimately responsible for ourselves. I personally, am not responsibe for how people feel about transgender issues or Z Budapest. That is my point.

People are going to feel how they feel based on knowledge and experience…we don’t need to be attacking one another, but if somebody does attack a certain person or group…I truly believe that it’s up to us to accept the opinion expressed or not…but to respect that others have a right to their opinion, even when we don’t agree. Adding “counter attack” to the situation is (in my opinion) unfruitful. I see alot of this happening here…that is what I have chosen to respond to.

Peace, Love and Light to all,
Signing off,
Star

As someone who is gay and warlock(and I mean the Old Norse definination) I ‘ve had my share of bigotry in both the Lesbian/Gay and Wiccan cultures. I have heard it all; gay women who didn’t want lesbians in the group(my gay group in college),shamans and anthropologists who still use the word ‘witch’ in a negative sense(this includes ceremonial magicians-watch ‘Hocus Pocus’ and people of color and Jews who are putting down their own kind. My point is “There’s a little bit of Archie Bunker in all of us” and this is the only known habitable planet in Sol’s system. Let’s try torespect each other a little and if we don’t agree-well at least we can air our opinions and differences which I bcould never do in college. I am still gay a nd a Wiccan witch although not in the general sense but we should be honest with each other, blessed be

@Star:

Yes, I agree, the attack-counterattack strategy is ineffective at best and can actually strengthen the perspectives we are trying to alter.

That being said, it goes against my moral code to sit silently in light of injustice (and whether or not the exclusion of trans-women from the ritual is in itself an injustice, the way it was done absolutely was).

My goal was not to attack, and I hope it wasn’t taken in that way (though it is a subject about which I am quite passionate, and so if it came across as an attack as a result, I am deeply sorry), but rather to shed some light on the underlying lack of understanding (both in the sense of compassion and full understanding of the implications of some of the things said, and in the sense of recognizing the basic scientific principles underlying sexual development that suggests the idea of biological sex as a binary – and the idea that a person’s genetic sex is necessarily indicative of their anatomical sex at birth – is a fallacy) that I saw in many of the comments.

If a man defined womanhood by the a woman possessing a uterus and menstruating, he’d be driven out of the Craft. Why is it that Z Budapest can get away with the same definition?

If you think PantheaCon was a recent development, let me clue you in. I was a participant in Z’s online Dianic Yahoo Group approximately 7 years ago. She did not extend a welcoming hand to transwomen in those days. What makes anyone think age has mellowed her?

Wow! I had no idea this was an issue. I attended this PantheaCon and have done so for the past 7 years. I am a natural born female. I do not subscribe to the Dianic tradition personally for me it is lacking in balance. However I see no problem with those who do choose to practice.
I do have a problem with those crying discrimination. There are so many events going on at PantheaCon that everyone can find something that suits their beliefs. It is just that in today’s society we have to have something to “protest” about.
All of us can claim some sort of discrimination. I feel that this outcry is more a way to be seen than anything else. There are as many pagan communities as there are pagan. I think we can all find a place to fit in without raining on other groups parade.
I am grateful for PantheaCon and look forward to attending many more. I wish I could say it will be without the politics involved but unfortunately that is the nature of our society.

@Ariel:

I said something to this effect somewhere upthread, but there are so many comments at this point that I doubt anyone wants to try to wade back through and read all of them, so I’ll just say it again here.

The problem isn’t necessarily that someone has decided to hold a ritual where only people who share certain experiences are invited to participate, the problem is that it was done in an extremely disrespectful and bigoted manner. It isn’t simply people looking for something to protest, it’s people reacting to extremely bigoted remarks that are representative of a pattern of such bigotry on the part of the woman in question.

Comment 27 goes into greater depth as to why this is in fact a problem if you’re interested

I am amazed that this happened again this year. However, one must realize that Wicca is a strict form of Paganism. I do not identify with Wicca, I am an eclectic Pagan. Wicca is too exclusionary for my tastes. I am in agreement that a public ritual is just that, public. If a person, cis or trans, wishes to take part in a group, after paying the price of admission, then they must be admitted. A private ritual is altogether different. I hazard a guess that Z did this again this year to call attention to the Dianic group. I am not sure. I do have to agree with some poster above me, that a blood ritual is a blood ritual. I am a rape survivor, and work with rape victims in crisis. I can understand the desire to keep men out of a healing ritual for survivors. But I also know trans women who have been tortured in terrible ways. I am not wise enough, despite being a crone, to answer this dilemma. Perhaps it is time for a new branch of Paganism, for trans people. I hate exclusion, and I hate bigotry. Seems like it is alive and well in the Paganism of today. A shame.

I’m not sure that sticking everyone who doesn’t fit into the socially acceptable categories of “cismale” and “cisfemale” into their own separate branch of paganism where everyone else doesn’t have to deal with them is really the best solution… I know that wasn’t what you meant by it, but I think that’s what it would ultimately amount to.

As far as I can see, the solution is for those who want to hold exclusionary rituals for whatever reason to do so in private settings, and for the exclusions to be done with respect.

There are plenty of ways to hold a ritual based on menstrual cycles or child birth or healing for rape survivors, or whatever else someone might want to hold a women’s ritual on that for some reason involves excluding some category of women without saying “you’re not a ‘real woman’ and we don’t want your kind here,” you know?

@Jay (Comment 29)

You have it absolutely correct.

I’d encourage anyone who is more than superficially interested to read Anne Fausto-Sterling’s, “Myths of Gender”, and, “Sexing the Body”.

The sexed body is a continuum. Furthermore, “Sex” is a biological category and “Gender” a socialized category; each are mutually exclusive except for the appearance of correspondence forced on them by conventional rules–the very thing we’re all trying to get away from.

Ms. Budapest is out of touch and even willing to carve up the sacred into false and painful categories for her own misuse of power.

I love Anne Fausto Sterling, “… labeling someone a man or a woman is a social decision. We may use scientific knowledge to help us make the decision, but only our beliefs about gender – not science – can define our sex.”

Sex and gender aren’t mutually exclusive, but they certainly can occur independently from one another. Even within the biological category of sex though (contrary to what so many people seem to think), the idea of sex existing as a binary is, as you say, patently false.

It’s nice to see someone else pointing that out, as the idea of rejecting the male/female binary seems… unpopular within many pagan communities, and I think that’s unfortunate.

While this is such an emotional and conflicting topic, this was a thought that I read online a few years ago. Another theory on the transgendered topic, not mine, but still, altogether interesting. Paraphrased from my memory: The original writer believed in reincarnation and that we have lived multiple lives. She believed that transgendered individuals were actually living with memories from a past life, i.e: “Nancy” was born a female in this life, but lived her most recent past life as a man and had trouble releasing this life. This idea always made sense to me because most transgendered individuals that I have met have always felt this way all of their lives. Just some interesting food for thought

This is disturbing really. In a time where women have fought to be considered equal and not to be excluded this group goes and does the exact thing that feminist against. It was not okay for Men to be exclusive and it’s not ok for women to be exclusive. That being said, they (members of that group) have chosen that life path and if transgendered women aren’t welcome there they’re welcome here. z Budapest and other like minded Dianics (note I didn’t say all Dianics) are not the be all end all of Wicca and paganism, nor do they hold exclusive rights to Goddess worship. Also, to those who state that ancient pagans castrated men to become a part of female rituals as a way to support this action should also recognize the changes within society and technology. Gender and sex are ambiguously assigned social constructs as such, no one has the right to inscribe and objectify the identity of another person. To do so creates a power imbalance and if paganism and Wicca claim to be about balance then this practice not only creates but reifies the distinction between male/female and masculine/feminine identities and reality.

I have never attended Pantheacon, for various reasons, and my comments are only based on my understanding of the accounts I have read online (Theo Bishop, et al).

I am a woman, mother, lola, and Pagan, married to a Pagan man. We practice as solitaries on purpose because we choose to do so. Sometimes we participate in public rituals and celebrations around our local area as time and health permit. There are several gay, lesbian, and transwomen ( perhaps transmen I am unaware of !) in our circle of acquaintances, and we have never given a minute’s thought about who may or may not have a particular genetic profile or functioning sexual parts matching a wedge in an imaginary Venn Diagram.

Being an organizer for such an event must be a huge undertaking. Some people are very good at this, and I am not one of those people.And having said all of that… I believe this was handled badly.
Apparently this has happened at least twice in a row, last year, and again this year. Why ?

(cont’d)
It seems to me ( my opinion only ), that last year’s situation should have been a warning beacon. Rather than dealing with this whole situation again at every Pantheacon, perhaps the event organizers could sit down and make some decisions about rules, in order to avoid all of this in the future.

If I had paid money to attend an event, and later was told “only those persons with the correct shade of blue eyes”, or “only those without prosthetic limbs, wheelchair, or colostomy bag, corrective lenses” are allowed to participate, I would be very upset. Did anyone know about this in advance ? Was it stated anywhere in printed event schedules or programs, or was it a surprise at the last minute ?

I have never met ZB, however, I am aware of her contributions to the Pagan community, and women. She does not get a free pass for behaving that way, just because she is an Elder in the community. Her comments are hurtful, even now, after the event. Some of the comments I have read in various blogs concerning her behavior are almost too painful to read. Additionally, it seems that her behavior is no surprise to those who have experienced this before. To each their own, I am not one of her fans. Some of those transwomen and transmen have had a hard enough time in their own lives in ways I cannot even imagine. And then to be treated this way… sad and senseless.

Having closed circles and private rituals is not a bad thing. However, being rude about it is, and turning it into such a divisive spectacle is awful. There must have been other, more private places to conduct this “members only” ritual.

An apology after knowingly causing harm is like buckling a seatbelt after an accident. The harm is already done. This entire episode makes me angry and tired.Maybe next year’s Pantheacon will be better.

Guess I will stick my nose in…

An tradition has the absolute right to practice in any way they see fit. That is why they are a distinct tradition.

That being said, I have been involved in a number of local festivals and gatherings. A ritual in connection with a gathering should never exclude anyone at the gathering that wishes to attend.

My experience is that a “public” ritual can not exactly be a fully ritual of the tradition anyway, as people attending would not be aware of all of the details of the tradition. If a group wants to hold a closed ritual, it should not be “sponsored” by the event, and in fact who ever IS producing the sponsored ritual needs to abide by the fact that all at the event must be welcome at the ritual.

Just my opinion as a solitary that has led many open and closed rituals. There is a time and a place for the proper rites of your tradition, but an open ritual sponsored as part of an event is nether the time or the place.

Full disclosure, I am male. I have nothing to say about the group in question or Dianics in general, as I am clearly not Dianic myself.

In private they have the absolute right to practice their tradition as they chose.

Chromosomes do not determine how your body will develop, the individual genes within the chromosomes do. There exists this group of people called intersexuals whose sex is not easily determined due to under developed male or female genitalia, immunity to a hormone, etc. Also there are women born without uteri, without ovaries, and men without penises and testicles. Sex and Gender in nature are not as clear cut as people think. To think there is one way to be male or female, or to believe there even is such a thing, is ridiculous. The fact that a group of people who worship the forces of nature think humans are outside the realms of nature because it’s convenient is ridiculous.

-A trans individual

My perspective on this is not based on whether Z is right or wrong. True religious pluralism requires not belief shared between sects but acceptance of those beliefs as valid for the people that hold them.

On the other hand is this display of exclusion a bad thing? If this is the sort of behavior and perspective that this traditions liturgy and its practices gives rise to then you have to ask yourself if you want in or not. I didn’t leave the Catholic Church because there isn’t anything beautiful in it and it’s rituals but I saw more and more examples of people who, believing in and practicing the religion, made me realize that I was not one of them anymore.

If you are a transgendered woman then there is no reason why you should venerate Z and her specific sect. If you see something in the Dianic liturgy that calls to you than take it and make it your own. Frankly I see great potential value in taking certain aspects of Dianic liturgy and applying it to public ritual requiring male attendants to cross dress. If Z created the Dianic tradition to counter the paternal current in religion by empowering the feminine then wouldn’t it help further that goal by working on the feminine aspects in the male gender?

Personally, what I think would further her cause would be working to end all bigotry, rather than contributing further to it (which she has done, not necessarily by limiting attendance to her ritual – had it been a private ritual, that is – but by doing it in an extremely disrespectful way that makes all kinds of value statements and judgments about what makes a “real woman”).

The system that makes one brand of bigotry acceptableakes all foe of bigotry possible. Such is the nature of systematic power inequity where “privileged” groups benefit from the subjugation of those who are not in that group. As someone who considers herself a feminist, she should realize that.

I am a transwoman, I am just waiting to finish this part of my journey with my surgery. Scary no transitioning is not scary but it is very costly not money wise but family, friends, and work. I lost them all when I said I was going to transition. We may be born with a male body but our minds are pure female and believe me the things we have to go through and put up with to get where we need to be is pure hell.Do you think we would be doing this if we were not woman, that would not make any sense. There is a saying Don’t judge a book by its cover. Well we can not be judged by our body. I am just as much female as my gentic sisters are. Do you not think every time I is a woman that is going have a child I do not cry inside knowing the I will never be able to do that.I feel the same as a gentic woman that is told she can never have children, I know that pain. The hormones also clear our minds as this is what we need to function and not be walking around in a fog. Turning a transwoman away from any women’s function is wrong.As they are just as much a woman as any other women and feel the same as a woman that can not have children. Being able to give birth to a child is precious and whether it is a gentic woman or a transwoman that dream she has had since she was 8 will not ever come true. Yes we are woman and in a way we paid our dues just to get where we are today. We have felt the pain of losing everyone in your life that has meant something to you, to lose your family to have them say you are dead. When your owe children turn their backs on you, you do not think we die inside as the paiin is great but we are still here. Yes I am a transwoman and I am very proud to be.

OK..gonna wade in here to just say this. To rant and rave over how men have treated women and to then turn around and use the same thought patterns and behavior as those you rant about dumbfounds me.

To say “men are pigs” is the same as men saying “women are sex toys”, it all derives from the same place which is hatred, jealousy and ignorance. So to exclude people who were once men from a public ritual is again displaying ignorance and hypocrisy of the worst kind. Hatred is hatred, discrimination is discrimination no matter how you try to justify it. You can try to keep splitting these hairs but honestly in this day and age they just don’t split anymore.

I am a woman who loves my husband. I don’t hold men in hatred or even responsible for any repression of women. We as women can change our station in life and instead of hating on the opposite gender or any version that is not like ourselves we can rise above it and make our way in this world as well as any man especially in this day and age. If we as a society would stop playing the blame game and start doing what we know we are capable of, these incidences would not be news but just a reflection upon the ignorant that is easy to ignore.

The exclusion issue is ever so close to the discrimination and prejudice heaped on gay people from so-called Christian organizations. I’m thinking that the ritual should’ve been removed from that particular venue. The idea of having it in a private space makes a lot more sense to me.

I very wise friend of mine told me about his experiences with a Medicine Man. The medicine man believed one of the most difficult challenges of our day was to find a way to prevent the victims of abuse and/or injustice from becoming the next generation of victimizers. The victim/victimizer pattern has repeated itself again and agian in individuals, groups, and nations. I think the trick is to avoid languishing in one’s victim-hood, to never let the painful and unfair past justify current and future actions.

I have read the article. I have read the comments. And, I have looked up Ms. Budapest’s blog and read that as well. Still, the largest part of comments miss the point entirely. This ISN’T about whether transgendered females are or aren’t Really Female. This isn’t about whether or not any particular group has the right to Not include any other particular group in Their private service. This is about how the situation was handeled…. VERY BADLY by EVERYONE actually involved in the planning and performance of the ritual. EVERYONE. I have never been able to attend this particular Planned gathering, but according to the article, this exact problem occured at last year’s event as well. So, why didn’t Ms. Budapest create a ritual that could be open to the Public instead of being a restricted private ritual at a Public event?’ Why wasn’t she prepared to give a public ritual along with the explaination that things would be done differently on ‘points A,B and C if it were her typical Private ritual? Why wasn’t she at the very least prepared with a civil and polite statement to turn away those that did not meet Her criteria for the ritual She wished to perform since she Knew from the past year’’s experience how hurtfull this could be? AND, Why didn’t the organizers of PantheaCon Not Make Sure She was Aware of the Problem and tell her she could not stage the ritual if she could NOT ABIDE the Inclusiveness? Ms. Budapest is NOT solely at fault here. The organizers of PantheaCon were Well Aware of the problem from the previous year and instead of making sure it would not happen again, they merely stood by, let it happen and then wrung their hands and said their “oh my”s over the hurt it caused. If they had bothered to Do ANYTHING to prevent this, they would have that right. The didn’t, so THEY DON’T.

If the ability to utilize feminine life-giving energy is part of the criteria to take part in Dianic rituals, then I challenge them to dispel their born-female members who cannot do this. Unless they do, they actually weaken their own circles, by their own logic.

Otherwise, exclude whomever you like in private, but the word ‘public’ has a definitition that precludes one from doing so at PantheaCon.

@E:
as a woman and as someone who has transgender friends , I have to say I agree with Z Budapest on this one, a male is a male no matter the steps taken to change gender….. by genetics he is still male , now before you attack I agree that if a person goes through the process and becomes a woman then yes she has the right to call herself woman but not female the genetics just do not support it.

How do you know you’re a “genetic woman”? Have you had a Karyotype – a test of your chromosomes?

1 in 300 men aren’t XY. 1 in 650 women aren’t XX.

A 46,XY mother who developed as a normal woman underwent spontaneous puberty, reached menarche, menstruated regularly, experienced two unassisted pregnancies, and gave birth to a 46,XY daughter with complete gonadal dysgenesis.– J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2008 Jan;93(1):182-9.

By all means believe what you want about “spiritual femininity”, “womanly essence” and other religious ideas. Just don’t try to justify them with nonsense about “genetic women”.

E:
See Bone marrow-derived cells from male donors can compose endometrial glands in female transplant recipients by Ikoma et al in Am J Obstet Gynecol. 2009 Dec;201(6):608.e1-8

This show that a bone-marrow transplant recipient’s entire bodies gradually become genetically identical to that of the donor due to cell turnover. Even the reproductive glands.

Just because someone’s genes change, and they go from XX to XY, doesn’t mean they’re no longer women.

The ideas that “chromosomes infallibly determine sex” and “chromosomes can’t change” are religious beliefs, not facts.

Finally, about “born women”.

Have a look at the effects of 5-alpha-reductase-2 deficiency (5ARD), or 17-beta-hydroxysteroid-3 deficiency (17BHSD).

From The Guevedoces of the Dominican Republic:
In an isolated village of the southwestern Dominican Republic, 2% of the live births were in the 1970’s, guevedoces (actually male pseudohermaphrodites). These children appeared to be girls at birth, but at puberty these ‘girls’ sprout muscles, testes, and a penis. For the rest of their lives they are men in nearly all respects . Their underlying pathology was found to be a deficiency of the enzyme, 5-alpha Reductase.

Some who are “born women” turn into men, unless this is prevented by medical intervention. You see, they’re not all boys, some are girls, and the natural change for them is a nightmare.

See RE: SALLY (SPECIAL MEDICAL PROCEDURE) [2010] FamCA 237, where a 14 year old girl had to seek permission from the Australian Family Court to prevent the change.

These are real people, not cyphers or experimental animals. These are real events, not hypothetical debating points.

3BHSD and some other conditions can cause both girls and boys to be “born men”, but change later. Great for the girls, not so good for the boys.

Such children face many medical and social challenges. They have enough on without facing persecution and (to be blunt) bigotry “justified” by scientific ignorance and misunderstanding.

As for Transsexuals – they were always anatomically of the sex they think themselves to be in some respects, and were since long before birth. Just not externally.

We suspected this 50 years ago, and have had experimental proof for over 15.

A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to transsexuality. by Zhou et al Nature (1995) 378:68–70.

Our study is the first to show a female brain structure in “genetically male” transsexuals and supports the hypothesis that gender identity develops as a result of an interaction between the developing brain and sex hormones

To over-simplify – female brain, otherwise mostly male body. Or the reverse. An Intersex situation, just like 5ARD, 17BHSD, 3BHSD, or hundreds of others.

If you want to experience the concept of “cis-privilege” in a way that can’t be ignored – consider these two statements:

Niggers who attack us only care about themselves.

That would be universally condemned, right? No debate needed, no justification accepted, no excuse that it’s an “Elder” who said it?

Now consider this, by Z.Budapest:

Transies who attack us only care about themselves.

See the difference? Heated debate, justification offered, excuses made.

The malice and hate is the same.

This wouldn’t matter so much if you weren’t dabbling with otherworldly powers. Remember, what goes around, comes around, and if the rituals have any meaning at all other than play-acting and “pretend”, if this isn’t all just some consensual game, anyone and everything involved is endangering themselves.

I respect my teacher, Thorn Coyle, and I respect her words. And I agree with both her and you, Ms. Patti. I understand that in ritual… there are times when sex comes into play, where the nature of one’s sex can draw a sort of unique element to it. And while as a Gay man, I revere in the all-natural-male element, I feel more diversity is at hand when you have different phases of those elements.

In other words, I like apples. I LOVE apples. And sometimes, I like to eat an apple for a snack. And sometimes I like going to apple orchards. But there are other times where I like to admire the orange trees of our Florida oranges, and pretend I’m a monkey when I spy with my little eye a bunch of bananas, and sometimes I like to eat all these fruits together in one sweetly delicious fruit salad. So what if the banana and oranges aren’t apples? We’re all human, and we can all revere in diversity. It gives us so many different ways to walk! A Transgender woman many not naturally be woman… but that does not mean she does not have the capability, the capacity to invoke the feminine aspect from inside her, as we all can no matter what sex we were born. In fact, I’m more prone to believe that she can be more female in nature than male, at any natural moment in that Transwoman’s life.

Ever met a Transgender person? it’s striking how they seem more the sex they wish to be (that righteously I believe they ARE) than the sex they were born, and without really even trying. I believe Z may mistake transgendered people to wanting to be something they are not, but that is me judging on what I see rather than what may truly be, so don’t take my word for it!

I’m a little late to the game but upon reading the immensely triggering and insensitive comments here, I thought I’d help balance that out.

Speaking as a trans man who does men’s spiritual work, I don’t personally feel there is a need to restrict gender mysteries to cisgender people. On the other hand, women’s mysteries as these groups practice them are primarily physical, and I can recognize their right as a spiritual group to exclude people who do not meet that criteria. There are plenty of exclusionary groups, including Pagan groups, and they have every right to be exclusionary. “They ban trans women” isn’t actually the issue. The real issues are these:

1. They consistently make exceptions to their criteria for cis women (who have had hysterectomies, who do not give birth by choice, who have hormone disorders, etc.). This means that they are absolutely not excluding trans women because they can’t meet those physical requirements; they would not turn down a cis woman in the same situation.

2. They turned women down at the door based on appearing transsexual. There are plenty of women who “look” transsexual to ignorant people who are not, and plenty of transsexual women who “look” cisgender. This is demeaning to all women by implying their womanhood is based on their looks.

3. Not only were they excluding people at a public event, they did so without making the exclusion clear for people who planned to go to it (it wasn’t just trans women who showed up, it was cis men as well). They instead expected people at a public event to just automatically know. It’s like having an exclusionary women-of-color event, calling it an event for women, and then getting pissed off when white women show up.

4. Most importantly, the cis women’s groups fighting for exclusion of trans women have not used even a modicum of respect when this is brought up. Z. Budapest, for example, has repeatedly used demeaning, transphobic language; Dianics in general have a habit of pretending they are not transphobic by making quasi-positive claims (”transsexuals have their own mysteries” is a common one) while using some of the most intensely hateful language I have ever seen outside of Fundamentalist Christians and Neo-Nazis (such as referring to trans women as “men-made-women-on-operating-tables,” some versions of which appear in the comments here). I can tolerate–obnoxious as I see it–the exclusion of trans women from Dianic rituals. I cannot tolerate hate speech, and that’s exactly what these women continue to use.