The Religious Right & The Battle for Public Schools

First thing that came to mind was “Really people? It’s 2012. Can we not understand the Constitution by now?”
Then I read on a bit more and thought, if they did this in a World studies/religions class that included all other common denominations of religion (Pagan, Buddhist, Hindu, Islam, Hebrew, etc) as well as Christianity, I wouldn’t be as opposed to it. I doubt that’s the way it would go about though. :-\

In truth, the letter from Thomas Jefferson, to the Danbury Baptists, read, in part, as follows:

“Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should “make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,” thus building a wall of separation between Church & State.”

I find it funny that we can see reports of a prayer breakfast, and have, in this country, a National Cathedral”

There is no real separation of church and state… c’mon, we should be able to see this by now, and understand that despite it being wrong, the “golden rule” still holds sway… “He (sic) who has the gold, makes the rules.”

We, as pagans, or wiccans, or any members of any small group within this society, whether it be religious or not, will be marginalized despite our most fervent efforts.

An unfortunate fact of this world.

The problem is, some schools have already done this. My high school offered a “Bible Studies” class that I’m pretty sure was taught by a Christian teacher. And of course all the Christian students took it because they thought it would reinforce their point of view. I didn’t realize it at the time, but now I know that there were no other classes relating to religion at that school. I sure hope that has changed by now, but the area in which I live used to be a big KKK area and therefore is not very diverse (or so they think). There are maybe 10 or 15 churches (all different denominations!) in my town of around 2500 people. Of course, when people take religious studies in college (especially a Bible class), they think the class will cater to their views. I am a senior in religious studies, and I can affirm that it does not. One person in my college Bible class was having trouble with some things in the Bible, which delighted me to no end.

Also, creationism was taught as an “alternative view” when I went there. It wasn’t necessarily stated to be correct, but how other people look at the Earth’s beginnings. That reminds me, most of the people I went to high school with thought the world was only 6000 years old, as the Bible says.

Blessings,
Victoria

Cedalion:

“There is no real separation of church and state… c’mon, we should be able to see this by now, and understand that despite it being wrong, the “golden rule” still holds sway… “He (sic) who has the gold, makes the rules.”

We, as pagans, or wiccans, or any members of any small group within this society, whether it be religious or not, will be marginalized despite our most fervent efforts.”

Two steps forward, one and nine tenths back, such is the way of progress (which might be better called stagnation, at this point…). No reason to stop fighting though. The minute we stop fighting all of the many injustices in our societies (and this goes for non-religious injustices as well) those one and nine tenths of a step back are going to add up.

Even if I can’t solve society’s many many problems, I can sure as hell do my best to help stop them from getting worse. Might not be successful, but at least I’ll be able to say I didn’t lie down and take it :]

Victoria:

“Also, creationism was taught as an “alternative view” when I went there. It wasn’t necessarily stated to be correct, but how other people look at the Earth’s beginnings.”

Creationism isn’t science, and so should not be taught as such. Frankly, if they’re going to bring in one religion’s creation story as an “alternative view,” they have an obligation to do the same for every other creation story. To do otherwise would be to establish Christianity as the more vaild path, which violates the establishment clause, I believe.

Not that I wouldn’t be interested in possibly taking a creation myth class, but it should be taught as such.

This is part of the reason why my d-in-law is homeschooling my 2 grandsons. Also because the classrooms are overcrowded, more and more kids don’t speak English, supplies are limited, etc, etc. This shoving of anything Christian down people’s throats has got to stop. I am tired of hearing the candidates on tv, and also hearing about what religion they follow. The concerns are for jobs, inflation, immigration, etc, not what church someone attends. It’s another sign of the government wanting to control the people more and more all the time. The line between separation of church and state is getting thinner all the time.

Teaching creationism as an “alternative view” is still saying that the Bible (not religion in general, only the Judeo-Christian Bible) is as valid a source of factual information as a science textbook. Which is simply teaching children a lie.

I’d have no trouble with a biology teacher being asked to say, as an introduction to the evolution class, “I should mention that the Bible says living things came about this way, the Bagavad-Gita says it happened like this, Shinto says this, Australian native legends say this, Native American traditions say that,,,” But you know that’s not what they mean by “creationism.”

@Sha: Point well made and received… however, I definitely am not one for taking it lying down. I’m usually dishing it out… being kind of a big loudmouth, hehehe.

I am a high school English teacher. As a part of my intro to World Lit class, I have the students read a variety of creation stories. Since I live in NC, the Bible creation story logically is the one my students know and can recite without the aid of notes. As human arrogance is wont to do, most students just assumed that the Bible version was “THE” version of creation.

Imagine their surprise when they were asked to draw comparisons between Norse, Aztec, Japanese, Egyptian, Wiccan, and Christian versions of the story ~ and then found that the 6 stories have a great deal in common.

Teaching creation isn’t a bad thing provided it’s done with proper balance. Teaching creation as a contrast to evolution isn’t ‘bad’ provided it’s done without favoring one over the other. If it gets people thinking and critically understanding why we hold certain beliefs, the lesson has done its job.

Scolai (8), I love this. Thanks for sharing from a teacher’s perspective. And this:

“If it gets people thinking and critically understanding why we hold certain beliefs, the lesson has done its job.”

is well worth repeating.

Scolai, that’s fantastic. I love the idea of kids learning about all kinds of stories-I believe it helps to bridge gaps between people. When I was in college I had a philosophy teacher who had planned to teach a class entitled “The Ethics of Religion” which I really wanted to take. Sadly, he passed away before the next semester began. I love learning about other faiths.

I am not against a creationist PHILOSOPHY. I am a creationist myself, but once again, this is a philosophy and not scientific fact which can be measured and tested such as Earth age and the age of the Universe. When philosophy is taught in place of science catastrophe ensues. People start yelling at each other and later . . . . burning each other.
Of course we know that couldn’t happen. Right?

I honestly have no issue with Christianity and creationism being introduced as a thought during classes or being talked about. I went to a mostly Muslim high school for a long period of time (3 out of 4 of my high school years), many of these kids were raised Muslim and followed Muslim religious laws very closely. Being raised Muslims most of them hadn’t seen a Christian bible. So students could see what the inside of a bible looked like my history teacher passed one around so students could look at it, he used it as a teaching aid since most students (with a few exceptions) probably hadn’t opened one. He gave us the option to not look at it if we so chose and many students did choose not to.

Once I transferred to a public high school (the other one being a private school) the biology teacher I had at the time said that he had nothing against creationist theories or any creation stories but he would not be teaching these in class and that if any students were interested in them they could speak with their own personal religious leader about them or look them up on the internet for ourselves since the schools computers (and any computers we had at home if we had access to computers at home) didn’t block these sites.

Other than cases like this where a bible is brought in as a teaching aid or something religious is being brought up so it can be pointed out that something isn’t going to be taught religion shouldn’t be there. Its something they can’t win with forever since most believe that out of the private school sector that schools should leave religion out of schools regardless of the religion being brought up.

Gee
School teaches the hard knocks and mechanics in life – it’s educational, so that you are prepared to deal with mundane things like speaking, writing, reading, etc. It is not geared or necessary, to include how to be touchy-feely.
Just the Facts Ma’am – prepare our kids to be at least literate in mechanics of life. If I want to worry about what the kids are learning as far as religion goes, I will send them to an ashram, or monastery, or temple, etc. If they want to go to a Christian School, fine! That is why there are schools that teach incorporating a certain philosophy. But PUBLIC schools are SCHOOLS. Maybe someone should define school, if they remember what a dictionary is. It would be very cool, and very legal, I suppose, if there were Pagan schools or day cares – . But Public School, NO. The kids are there to prepare for life with the skills they need to function. Not enter philosophy into it. One can be plenty inspirational and up about life without drawing religion into the mix – unless it is put across as And we ask **Insert deity or none, of your choice.** into this.

Personally, I think they should spend some time on inspiring basic behavior and morals as far as inspiration goes – You know – other inspirational words – like fun and good sportsmanship and eco-conscious, neighbor, thriftiness, courteousness, fair play, teamwork, etc.

Imposing a religious belief or teaching a belief system is not an random act of faith it is clearly an act of tyranny an agression

Scolaí: I have to respectfully disagree with you here:

“Teaching creation as a contrast to evolution isn’t ‘bad’ provided it’s done without favoring one over the other.”

Evolution is supported by a great deal of scientific evidence, and creation (as it relates to any religion, not just Christianity) simply is not. To teach both without favoring one over the other suggests that both theories are of equal merit (scientifically, that is. I can’t speak to spiritual merit, as that would be arrogant in the extreme, and I think rather foolhardy), which isn’t the case and does a disservice to the students, in my opinion.

Like I said, I don’t necessarily have an issue with teaching students *about* creation stories, particularly when creation stories from a variety of cultures are looked at, as you describe, but this should happen in the context of a creation myth or religious philosophy or similar course. It shouldn’t be put next to evolution as a viable scientific alternative.

That being said, I have absolutely no problem with a teacher who states at the beginning of the evolution class something to make sure that the students know that their religious beliefs – including those surrounding creation – are not being disrespected or disdained, but rather that those topics are not within the realm of science, and so are better discussed with their friends, family, spiritual leaders or perhaps that creation myth class.

Sha,

I understand your point, however, it is not my role to tell students what to think (that one idea is factually or morally superior to another) but to get them to arrive at their own conclusions about such ideas.

One of my greatest peeves is to talk to people that cannot intelligently defend their personal beliefs. It is not enough to know what you believe. It is incumbent upon the believer to be able to state with specificity why a belief is held. Simply stating, “I believe what I believe because it is what I was taught,” is insufficient. There must be a defensible argument that accompanies belief. Ask me what I believe about deity, and I will tell you. Challenge me on what I believe, and I can logically defend my ideas.

Thus, I want my students to develop a strong sense of who they are without my attempts at defining them. If a student believes in Biblical creation, that’s excellent. All I ask is that they do more than say, “The Bible tells me it’s true,” when their beliefs are challenged. They need some thoughtful support of their position. If a student chooses to embrace Darwinian evolution, then they need to be able to authoritatively speak on the subject if challenged.

This process (defense of ideas) should transcend every area of their lives. We should take a thoughtful, defensible approach to pretty much everything we do as humans ~ eating, exercising, buying a car/house, choosing a mate, etc. We practice this thoughtful all the time in our literature.

I’m trying to create a group of thinkers as opposed to a group of blind followers. I don’t care if their ideology contrasts my own (or even contrasts logic itself) as long as they can justify their beliefs.

Home Schooling can truly be a blessing for pagan families, I wasn’t home schooled, but I may home school my children if they put bible studies in school, I don’t mind if they teach evolution as much, because it leaves wiggle room( what caused the big bang and so on). It also allows the parents to be more involved and intune with their childrens education, and if done properly, the kid gets a better education than what they would get at a public school. Down side, they may not meet as much people and you still have to pay taxes into the school that your kid’s not even attending. So I personally believe if they pass creationism as a requirement that families whose children are being homeschooled shouldn’t be required to pay that tax. It’s only fair.

Scolaí,

I appreciate what you’re saying, and I absolutely agree with you about the importance of developing those critical thinking skills rather than just accepting what is told to us (and that goes for scientific thought as much as religion. Science is a human activity, and thus prone to human biases and errors, so I think it’s as important to look into how we’ve come to scientific conclusions as it is to do the same for religious conclusions).

I think it’s unfortunate that society encourages blind obedience to authority (we call it “respect” but to my mind there is a vast difference between acting respectfully toward someone/something and accepting whatever is said without question), rather than the (in my opinion anyway) far more useful “question everything” mindset.

That being said, I think there is a difference between being respectful of a student’s decision to continue embracing their religious teachings surrounding creation (they should still of course be responsible for learning the material and understanding the concepts involved, even if they don’t believe in them) and teaching a religious creation story (regardless of which religion it comes from) alongside evolution as a valid alternative scientific theory.

Continued:

It isn’t so much a matter of it being a problem for the students to have different ideas about how life and all life’s diversity came to be, and it certainly isn’t a question of blindly following (any evolution course should present the evidence for evolution, and how that evidence was found, and why it supports the theory of evolution. Students should then be able to show that they understand all of this and are not simply parroting it back, and everyone is entitled to come to their own well thought out conclusions based on their own interpretations of the evidence, so long as they can show that they understand the material being taught as well).

It’s a question of what should be taught in a science class, and the answer (to my thinking, at least) is science. That for which we have scientific evidence. Creation stories don’t belong in a class like that (or at least they shouldn’t be taught as viable alternative scientific theories, which they simply aren’t).

Religion is deeply personal, and many people may have experiences that lead them to the conclusion that particular religious beliefs are in fact true, and to that I say good for them. But there’s no way to get objective, scientific evidence of these things, and so I don’t believe they should be taught in public schools alongside evolution.

Something like that should be taught in a creation myth course, or perhaps a literature course, or even a history course (as beliefs that have shaped particular cultures, not has historical facts. In that context, it might also make sense to mention what was believed before evolution at the beginning of a course on evolution, but again, it isn’t teaching it as fact, but rather as something that is/was believed by some people, and thus has shaped history in that way).

I rather find it amusing that the folks who are so quick to decry Muslim countries whose laws are based on Sharia Law are so hungry for the same sort of thing in America. What makes attempting to base American laws on Christianity any different?

I’ve gotten busy and unable to reply. I just wanted to point out that creationism was actually in the textbook we used in high school; the teacher didn’t just discuss it. Looking back on it now, it is a huge problem. Religious theories of creation should absolutely NOT be taught alongside of scientific ones.

I’m just glad I graduated from there. Too many “Jesus freaks” for my taste.

I just don’t understand wtf is wrong with some of these schools. I went to a private Catholic high school and we had two different classes where we learned about different religions. One girl in my class was Hindi so her mom came in to teach about their beliefs. My teacher almost always had someone come in that was a part of the specific religion we were learning about…and guess what, parents didn’t freak out! I just don’t get what’s so hard about including all religions and religious texts in classes. If you’re so strong in your beliefs you shouldn’t feel intimidated by someone explaining their equally valid beliefs.

Ok now my point of view, which got teachers thinking when I was in the 5th grade. Combine the creationalist viewpoint with science. Which would start with the great “I Am” starting the big bang theory. And you cannot have just one god being called on constantly and doing everything him/her self. They would deligate to other deities and/or angles and faries. Still makes sence.

The founding fathers of this country were Free Masons. Thomas Jefferson had his own version of the bible. Anything that he didn’t believe that Jesus said he siimply blacked out. Made his bible much smaller. Free Masons did not have to be christian to be a Free Mason.