FL Senate Passes School Prayer Bill

Oh my … the adults cannot LEAD the prayers. But it will TAKE adults to ensure that messages of “inspiration” are shared throughout an event. Children do not create the schedules for assemblies, sporting events or other public functions. Adults to. At the very least, adults approve the scheduling.

This is utterly, utterly ludicrious insofar as logistics are concerned. Let’s just SAY, that at the beginning of a school assembly, a group of students begin chanting to Ra or Isis, or fall to their knees to praise Allah. Perhaps singing a gospel song together. How about casting a Circle? These actions aren’t scheduled as part of the assembly, but each of these is perfectly legal and acceptable. Right?

So – since none of the adults can be involved, nor can they deny the students these expressions of “inspiration,” then how does the assembly itself ever begin? Who decides when “enough is enough?” and cuts the children off from sharing their messages of inspiration? “Oh, how unfair!” cries the Christian child – the Muslims got to do THEIR prayer! “Foul!” yells the Pagan child – the Atheists got to say THEIR piece! “I’m suing!” screams the Muslim – the Christians got the microphone, but we didn’t!

Ummm…. who decides who gets the microphone?

Oh … and MY message of inspiration might be derived from Star Trek instead of religion. I wonder if anyone will sue me if I say, “To boldly go where no ONE has gone before,” instead of “… where no MAN has gone before.”

Yep. A total logistic nightmare. You can BET I would coach MY kid to stand up and say something. You care to make a wager that others will do the same????

Inspirational messages (Prayer) in school. Wow. What a great idea. Most-decidedly not.

I am under the firm belief that alleged “Christians”, or CINO as they’re starting to be called now (Christian In Name Only), have some mental disorder.

No, seriously, bear with me.

We, as Pagans, know that there are a multitude of variables between one extreme and the other. This is fully integrated into our belief systems. We aren’t the only religion that shares this understanding, and indeed, there are many who have no religion at all that understand this; however, CINOs are incapable of seeing such a basic precept.

For CINOs, it is either black or white, light or dark, good or bad, heads or tails, “with us or against us”, “with us or with the terrorists”, etc.

There is no gray. There aren’t myriad shades between black and white.

They live only in binary.

This is a dangerous way to live in the world, and even more dangerous is the fact that our country (and many other parts of the world) are now changing their own governmental structuring to emulate this, and those who truly CAN see the shades of gray between the black and the white are being discounted as “fringe” and ignored, mocked, even removed.

Our current political situation with the upcoming presidency is a prime example of this line of reasoning.

The precedent that this sets frightens me gravely, both as a Pagan and as someone who is gender-queer.

I think most Christian’s are aware of the middle ground too (or at least I’ve known enough who do to know that the extremism you describe is not universal. I admit I haven’t actually met most Christians so I really shouldn’t try and speak as though I do, throwing around words like “most” and all that). I know you specified “Christians in name only” so that wasn’t me stating disagreement, just clarifying my position on all that before I say my next bit, because…

I do think that many of the loudest and most publicly visible Christians particularly in the political realm seem to exhibit that inability (well, I think it’s more of a refusal han an inability) to acknowledge that middle ground

I tend to think it’s a power thing. If you can get a group of People divided over an issue like this and suggest that if you don’t support A then you must be in favor of Z, it suddenly becomes a lot easier to manipulate people not just on that issue but on a lot of future issues as well. But his is certainly not the case with all Christians and I suspect it’s not most.

What I’m curious to know is who decides which kids get to present their “inspirational messages” in a situation where a lot of kids want to do it. And who ensures that here isn’t any bias in that decision? Would a young Satanist be allowed to share an inspirational message at one of these meetings? And what would an atheist say. Would an atheist be allowed to say something like, “I don’t believe in any god, but I do believe in our Fighting Rhinos!” I’m not trying to suggest that the answer would be no, I’m just curious.

Incidentally, if the answer is yes, who makes sure these kids are allowed to share an inspirational message that reflects their non-mainstream path without suffering at the hands of their classmates (or indeed the adults)? It has been my observation that some schools are not all that skilled at dealing with religiously based bullying. Or indeed bullying at all.

Based on the language of the bill, it seems as if the student organizers of a student led portion of the assembly will be able to determine if a inspirational message will be given, as in, if there isn’t a student led portion of an assembly (such as one given strictly by school personnel, such as the principal), then students won’t be giving inspirational speeches. Fair enough.

However, while this does protect a student’s rights under the First Amendment (which, by the way, already grants them the ability to pray with other students and pass out religious material), there are some major problems with this bill (at least by the way it is worded).

It stipulates that the student organizers will determine who will deliver the inspirational messages (if, at their discretion, a message is given at all). Does that mean that mean that one has to be among the organizers to be able to volunteer to give a message? And if so, what if one is of a different religion than the other student organizers (who again have sole discretion over whether or not an inspirational message is even given)? What if the Christian students don’t want a Witch giving an inspirational message?

And while I understand why they decided to keep the staff out of the process, not allowing them to check the content of the message means that students can say virtually anything, from humorous messages about the Flying Spaghetti Monster to messages about every non-Christian student burning in Hell for all eternity. The adults can’t interfere and the students have to sit there and listen to it.

I find this to be quite “scary” and a way to bully and demoralize those with non christian beliefs. …however I hope I am wrong for the sake of our children.

I think that since we have gotten onto the subjet of polerization in politics and religon (particularly christianity) today I think it behoves me to point out a fact that most people are not aware of. Polerization dose many things that allows certain individuals to come to power. The first is that it designates and singles out a belief or doctrine and said leader of belief or doctrine as one side, while all other choices populate the other. This creates a series of 2 choices. The choice is either black or white, good or bad, with us or against us. What people forget is that life is full of more than just 2 choices. Such tactics are used by the powerful and canny to controll the week and stupid. If you say come with me or live or deny me or die, which choice are most people going to take…forgetting the whole time that there are multiple other options open to them. The third thing is it gives the masses something to hate. Something to strive against. Something that is in direct oppisition to you. This is a motivating factor that causes the masses to act and react when they might have just stood by otherwise. Tell them that the evil ‘others’ are trying to destroy them for being opposed to them will not only force the masses to act but give them the comfort that they did so only in self defense. This is why we see so many christians saying that there is a war on christianity now adays. That is why there is such a outcry against such issues as gay rights and religious tollerance. That is why christians scream that they are being persecuted while persecuting all others. And untill people realize how they are being manipulated it will just continue.

I would instruct my child to take a quote directly from the Bible — Matthew 6:5-8.

IF there is going to be a law like this passed, then one stipulation is that EVERY religious belief should be included. If they say a prayer to God, then the gods/goddess should also be invoked, a prayer to Allah, and a statue of Buddha, etc. Not right at all. I thought Florida was in AMERICA? Where did our rights go??????

“However, while this does protect a student’s rights under the First Amendment (which, by the way, already grants them the ability to pray with other students and pass out religious material)…”

I have no issue with students having religious discussions on their own time during school hours. No one has to listen to it if they don’t want to, and those who do listen are free to give their own perspective.

Because it’s done on their own time and is not arranged by any third party (such as the student organizers in this case), every student gets an equal opportunity to share their beliefs/disbeliefs if they so choose.

Being a part of a minority path, even if the majority is opposed to your beliefs/disbeliefs, in no way hampers your ability to share those beliefs/disbeliefs (beyond the potential for bullying of course, which unfortunately does not necessarily go away no even in adult years for some, and which unfortunately some schools seem unwilling to deal with).

The school prayer bill doesn’t seem to stipulate any of that (and indeed how could it, as most of those benefits are the direct result of the discussions occurring on the students own time during the school day, rather than as a school sanctioned part of an event), and to be frank, I don’t anticipate the whole thing being done in a completely (and perhaps impossibly, in the current political/religious climate) fair manner.

I realize the person I quoted (Luna WolfDragon) was also expressing her issues with this bill, and the use of a quote from her post was in no way meant to indicate that I thought that she was in support of the bill as stands. I merely saw the parallel between the student religious activity already (rightfully so, I think, when done lawfully) permitted in schools and the activity being allowed by the new bill, and wanted to point out to anyone who might see those parallels as a reason why this bill is just fine where those parallels fall apart.

“IF there is going to be a law like this passed, then one stipulation is that EVERY religious belief should be included. If they say a prayer to God, then the gods/goddess should also be invoked, a prayer to Allah, and a statue of Buddha, etc. Not right at all. I thought Florida was in AMERICA? Where did our rights go??????”

Well it’s not really possible to include every single religious/spiritual belief/disbelief (atheists are people too, and should not be excluded simply because they don’t believe in some unseen unprovable figure) at every event. For that reason and many others, I agree with you that Ican’t see how this bill could be implemented fairly.

*”I can’t” not “Ican’t”

I agree that fair implementation is unrealistic if not impossible.

I also find Sen. Storms’ remark “couldn’t understand why anyone wouldn’t want students to hear inspirational messages at the start of an assembly.” chillingly reminiscent of Professor Umbridge as High Inquisitor in the Harry Potter series (”I can’t imagine any situation arising in my classroom that would require you to use a defensive spell, Miss Granger”)!

Its time to do an eval on what constitutes bullying in schools. Putting a child in a situation where they conform or stand out and be ridiculed by the status quo is bullying and abuse. I dont care if they pray in school…i care if its organized and DISCRIMINATORY. And I really dont see them letting the Pagan kids cast a circle and lead a prayer. Honestly, its discrimination however you slice it since not all denominations of Christianity pray the same. How long before we are listening to them bicker about the ‘true Christians’ and the false again. Of course if they are fighting among themselves maybe theyll leave us alone.

I’m wondering what will happen if a group of Pagan kids decides to say a prayer of their own. I can see this working for mainstream religious groups, but there is bound to be pressure, with some kids feeling compelled to join in prayers that aren’t really of their own heart. And I have my doubts that kids who aren’t in the majority are going to feel comfortable opening a prayer that goes against the mainstream. Why the group thing? Can’t people just say a quiet prayer of their own? With all of the bullying going on this could possibly open up the door for kids who decide to lead Pagan or even Jewish (depending upon the locale) prayers to being hassled.

Why does an “inspirational message” need to be a religious message? People are “inspired” by many things. This is a gross misuse of semantics in order to press an evangelical agenda.

I would like to call all Pagans, especially the ones who haven’t done so, to pick a Sunday and visit a church. You will be welcomed in most churches because they want to save you from Hell, which they most certainly believe we are all going to if we die without knowing Jesus as they do. While many philosophies such as Taoism, Kaballa, etc., believe it is possible to share “Inspirational Messages” with others of a different faith (and I have indeed been blessed by many teachers of those faiths), you will find that mainstream Christianity has absolutely NOTHING for you unless you become what they are. And, that is a far cry from the teachings of the man who praised a Roman centurian for his faith . . . a Pagan. As a friend pointed out to me that man would have still been a Pagan when he left to find his servant healed.

Larry

Things like this make me almost grateful not to have children yet in my life! I was raised Baptist, but became a solitary Wiccan in my late twenties. Our Baptist church was very much for the separation of church and state, which I still believe is the correct idea. I respect all faiths and believe everyone has a right to practice their own faith; however, their rights end where mine begins. Most of all, I feel that a person’s religious beliefs should be their own business. I can’t see how prayer or any other form of worship has any place at any public, secular school function. Since schools are publicly funded, couldn’t this be viewed as the goverment sanctioning a certain religion if only one faith is allowed to share their prayers? And, I have a funny feeling that only students with the “right” beliefs will be permitted to lead prayers or share inspirational messages.