School Flip-Flops on Religious Material Policy

Wht do some people need to make such a stink- It was Her childs choice- He was not forced into taking that Bible. Shouldn’t she and her child be studying All religious beliefs ? I think some pagans push for an audience as do many Christians and – that is why so many have such a bad name

I wouldn’t know how to go about making this right. My daughter goes to the local YMCA for preschool and they always say “thank you God for this food” before their snack. I’ve told her she doesn’t have to but she continues to do it because they all are asked to do it, or because all of her friends do. It’s not a fact of choice. Children are young and impressionable and don’t want to feel left out.

so many people forget that the “C” in YMCA stands for Christian.

Hold up a minute… the title of this post had caught my eye “School Flip-Flops on Religious Material Policy” as I was aware of the North Carolina incident. I had an experience at my daughter’s school with the Gideons last year where I had to go to the principal and challenge his decision to allow them on school grounds, so I empathize with the case. HOWEVER, the title of this post is misleading. The school is reviewing their policy, they have not yet made a decision from what I can see, so it is errant to tout this as a case of them flip flopping. They SHOULD be reviewing their policy considering what has been going on and what issues they now need to address, so why post something that is not only untrue, but also implies that they are being shady or something?

As for the mother, I get why she made the move she did. Part of me sees it as the logical response to the situation. Another part of me thinks “So she thought it was wrong to distribute religious material to other people’s children, yet she wants to do the same thing just to prove a point… not cool” Declaring (metaphorical) war on the school for a policy you think is a violation is one thing, trying to do the same thing yourself not only jeopardizes your credibility but is actually more wrong morally IMO as you are doing it after openly arguing that it is wrong.

Like I said, I’ve been in this mother’s situation. And yes, I asked the principal if he would have been as agreeable to my bringing a stack of Cunningham books. Book I didn’t do it, partly because I abhor hypocrisy and partly because I didn’t feel it was right to begin with.

As far the comment about as pagan we should know other religions most of of do..I was a christian..but I chose wicca instead.. I don’t think she wanted an audience sometimes we just want to be left alone. period. and sometimes folks may push the envelope. And the DO know who we are.

So please don’t assume All pagans Hate Christians my husband is A Southern Baptist. and we love each other just fine. Instead of downing your own folks and we have that bad too. and stop analyzing with they Think and we don’t. unless you are there..you are not being fair. I just saying.

Hmmm, I see this as a testing point of the schools. Perhaps both the Christians and Pagans need to be reminded there are MANY more religions weighing in on this. Perhaps the school in Question should allow Buddhist doctrine, and Hindu, and Jewish and give the kids fliers or books from all of them and treat each the same. Or offer a class in religious practices and beliefs so all can see there are more than 2 choices..

This is from Sybil Leek, and for me says it all…;
Tolerance

Tolerance may be one of the least acted-upon principles of many modern belief systems. While many people espouse the virtue of tolerance, many refuse to be so, making blanket statements about people whose religion doesn’t coincide with our own. To tolerate someone else’s belief doesn’t mean to put up with it begrudgingly; instead it means to accept their right to choose differently from us. We are all human beings, and all connected to the Divine; this factor makes us part of the cosmic whole. When in fact we look at the concept of “do no harm” — and this includes with our words as well as our actions — we must refrain from doing harm not because a rule tells us so, but because it’s the right thing to do. After all, what goes around comes around.

I live in Asheville and read the original article. Apparently, someone also wanted to send 500 Qarans, so this was not just the Pagan mom getting involved. Everyone’s comments are about how the school is right for reviewing the policy, but really they just wanted to distribute the bibles then stop distributing all religious texts when it became a big deal. Also, the mom pretty much said she was expecting them to do this – she told them she would be bringing the material in beforehand.

Thanks for this write up. The fact of the matter is that this is illegal and this school system and the Gideons persist in this unconstitutional behavior. This is not the first instance with this system. I was with Ginger when the books were delivered to the school. She/we were calling the school’s bluff. The original incident took place the day before winter break and I feel confident they all hoped it would cool down. The principal did say she’d make any other religion’s material available in the same manner but we knew they’d find a way around it. And they have. By reviewing the policy (and I personally don’t believe there is an existing policy), they keep the matter in limbo for as long as the review will take. Bottom line–this is illegal. Agree or disagree with the tactics involved, that fact remains the same.

The Bibles were made available at a public school, thereby cloaked in the authority and blessings of the school, which is part of the local government. This sends a strong message which is not lost on children, as the U.S. Supreme Court has asserted time and time again. Children who do not take the Bibles are subject to bullying, humiliation, and sometimes violence by those who DO take the Bibles. By making the Bibles available on school property, the school as a branch of government shows a distinct favoritism to Christianity. By refusing the religious materials of another religion, the school has now established Christianity as the school-sanctioned religion, which is is in direct violation of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment of the Constitution. This entire situation highlights the wisdom of the Separation of Church and State, which doctrine is an integral part of our government. It serves to prevent situations just like this so that public schools can get on with the secular pursuits of science, math, English, etc. If parents want their children to be educated in religion, then do it at home or at a parochial school of their choosing.

I am so sick of public schools breaking the rules only for what “good Christian folks” want. If they were GOOD Christian folks they would want EQUAL rights for ALL the students and not just their students. My son goes to A.C. Reynolds (a different school than the school in the article). At “Christmas” he was given a thick pamphlet on Christianity. ACR did not hand out pamphlets on Yule, Samhain or any other pagan holiday that we celebrate. ALSO, there was a morning prayer group for students at ACR. My son asked for his own “morning meeting”. The next day he and his friends were sitting next to the Christian group and were told by those “Christian” students to leave the area. THE NEXT DAY there were no morning meetings allowed!!!!!
“They ARE FLIP FLOPPING. They (schools) Flip to let Christianity creep back in and they FLOP when it comes to letting any other religion back in. They are SHADY as well. Schools let Christians do what they want (mostly) until another religious group asks for the same rights…..Then and ONLY then do they say that they have to decide and vote to see if it is legal. Schools are already breaking the law. BY law they are not supposed to allow ANY religion in the schools that is not lead by the students. However, what they have done is allow Christians to continue to bring religion into schools. They have discriminated against ALL other religions.
Thank you for reading my comment. Remember: We are ALL-ONE! Peace and Love to you all.

I think many exagerate their issues. The YMCA Daycare, Do they tell those children which God or Who’s God. See praying is individual,Teach your children to be tolerant as well. You say you want to be excepted. Then it is time to be excepting.
Children learn by example teach them a prayer or meditation that includes the word God, problem solved.

When I was in school in the 1960′s we had to take a Gideons bible home with us every year. I did not like doing this but we were forced to.

I think what the mother did was wonderful. She was demonstrating to the school how, if they were going to persist in this policy, it goes for EVERYTHING. After all, that’s what they said, that it was inclusive. So she demonstrated to them what that was going to mean. It doesn’t strike me as her wanting attention at all. The Bible, or any other religious text is NOT to be distributed at a public school. Just allowing the policy and refusing the offer isn’t enough. They have to have it demonstrated to them what keeping that policy really means, because people will continue to behave in this illegal and ignorant manner until they have it placed in their face that what they are doing is wrong. I have found that Christianity has a very narrow view of what is right and correct. They will say that they are fine with other beliefs, which means as long as the other beliefs stay quiet, not enjoying the same rights as Christianity does, and as long as nothing they as Christians have traditionally done has to be modified in any way, etc. I am not anti-Christian, but I am anti the attitude that even “nice” Christians tend to display: we’re the majority religion, our country was really founded on OUR beliefs (wrong, but they believe it) and we’ll put up with you being around as long as you don’t have equal standing. I applaud this mother for taking a stand.

And one other thought, having read further…my child has been subjected to harrassment from other students due to our school’s “Good News” groups they allow after school. I have read our school’s policies, and apparently I can’t do anything about this because ANY group is supposed to be allowed to use the school for meetings-and I highly doubt ANY group could…let’s say, an earth-religions appreciation group or something?-but many girls have picked on my children because we do not participate in the Good News Club. In a child’s mind, the school is definitely supporting Christianity. At least, in MY child’s mind, that’s exactly how she sees it. There are flyers inviting children to stay after and go to the meetings in the school office, so how would you not get the message that it’s all good to them? The harassment has lead to girls finding out that my daughter doesn’t profess any particular religion, including Paganism. She just prefers to leave the jury out and learn about many paths, but then she gets informed by these girls that she will be going to hell, that Jesus was the author of the Bible and she should be reading it, etc. etc. They go home and tell their parents, and my daughter mysteriously doesn’t get invited to parties anymore because she’s a “bad influence” (when my daughter asked her friend why she couldn’t come to the party, the girl quoted her mother as saying this). I wasn’t aware that having a particular religious belief was important at birthday parties! So yes, there was great wisdom in separating church and state.

About, “School Flip-Flops on Religious Materialy Policy:

Commenting on Tinas’ comment. To me, and many others, it has nothing to do with making a stink, or getting in some-ones face for their religious beliefs. The whole point is to be able to have the same freedom as others, (usually christianism). It has nothing to do, what-so-ever about being able to pass out “Pagan” material on school property. It has all the intent of being Equal. I, myself, (and for that matter, most “Pagans / Witches”, etc. that I know), are very much for their children to know and understand other religions. This case has nothing to do with that. It is the intent of a particular religion being able to flaunt their beliefs, and teach them in their own way, to any child on school property, as the only True Religion, so therefore, not being able to be denied, nor challenged, in any way they seem fit to influence a childs mind; especially when they know that peer pressure is involved; even if only to get out of class.

Shining Wolf

Here is a solution that seems to escape people- homeschooling. Like Christians who WANT their children to have Christianity incorparated into their education they pull their children from public school and homeschool. The same can be said for Pagans. I know parents of both religions that do that for their children. Its acceptable for everyone and works. If this is not acceptable, then find another means to have your child educated via a charter school or secular private school. Either way, we all have to co-exist, the fondations for Paganism, Islam, Christianity and the other -isms is love, peace and respect for all, thats really what children need to know.
~Blessed Be

I think we’re missing out on the basic fact that by law church and state are to be kept separate. Period. Religious inclusivity has nothing to do with this- church and state are separate and, thus, any religious materials should be kept off school grounds. As far as celebrating holidays (which is a sort of gray area) I believe all should be able to celebrate their family traditions. If a class does a craft for the winter holidays, for example, a child should be allowed to create something for the holiday celebrated by his or her family, whether that holiday is Christmas, Hanukkah, Yule, etc. As far as the comment about the YMCA, I believe that stands for “young men’s clubs of America” though it now includes everyone. Though it began with a Christian ethic, the word “Christian” was not in the title. Our local Y promotes Judaeo-Christian values in their literature.

Also, we homeschool our child. If we didn’t I wouldn’t want other people teaching my child to believe other faiths. Faith is a personal and private issue and we have the right to raise our children as we feel is true for us. It’s good to teach kids about other faiths, but it should be up to parents to decide when and how this is appropriate. Just my own personal belief.

That said, we homeschool our child, and I feel that religious education is the business of parents. It’s not appropriate for someone else to decide which other faiths will be taught to my child, when they will be taught and how they will be presented. We talk with our daughter about other religions; it’s nobody else’s business to do so unless we’re aware of the context and unless we know what is being said. There is, unfortunately, quite a bit of misinformation out there. Just my own belief.

A response to jc…

A HUGH portion of my ever increasing personal property tax goes to support the school district I live in. I shouldn’t be ‘forced’ to remove my children from those schools because the staff doesn’t know how to follow the law. Especially, since my taxes would be supporting those schools whether or not my children attend them! School vouchers are NOT the answer…

Homeschooling is a great option for some, but not for people who need two incomes to keep the bills paid and everyone fed.

My son was leaving his highschool one day to come home, and a group with a box of bibles thrust one on him. He told them no thanks I don’t need one i’m pagan, but they insisted. These people were just outside school property. I was pretty angry at that, but at least we were able to give the bible to a church. But i too am tired of double standards even here in Canada. Christian groups could use schools to meet, but when a pagan group asked they were refused. Then the school “rethought” its policies and took the christians out as well.

Re: the YMCA. This is a private Christian organization but in my experience it is only loosely Christian and very inclusive. I went to Y daycare and summer camps throughout my childhood. We always said grace before a meal but it was so generic I don’t remember ever equating it with a god–just the idea that we should be grateful for what we have.

At camp, there was a “rag” program wherein you earned different color rags (triangular pieces of fabric that you wore tied around your neck) by learning various things, completing personal challenges, and going through ceremonies in the woods that, looking back, seem rather Pagan or Masonic-inspired. These rags had small crosses printed on them (inside a triangle-inside-a-circle-inside-a-square symbol) but the counselors would paint them out and put in whatever symbol a kid wanted if they did not want the cross (e.g. a star of David for a Jewish kid).

All in all, my YMCA experiences were at times spiritual but never what I would call religious.

School Libraries can accept donations, and usually love them. And if a student wished to check out any book an any religious spiritual study, – more power to the school library that has them! A very correct location, available to all with no prostylizing , or church vs state involved.

Unless the school is holding a book fair, where books donated (no matter the content) will be sold/fundraising, I do not feel that schools should made donated (and censored) religious materials to students, except via a library. Otherwise the above is either all or none. The school does have the right to review it’s compliance standards, but the simple policy is all or nothing.
Donate to the library! (and school library is fine). A school’s purpose does not include acting as a marketing venue for other organizations that are not directly affiliated with known scholastic organization. So if there is a bible in your school library, all the other paths need to also be freely available. But they aren’t to be a marketing venue.

To those who think the choice should be left up to the child: if they were handing out porn magazines at the principal’s office and anyone could leave class to get one, do you think the kids would refuse it? i wonder how many would…

Yet another reason why the government run school system should be disbanded. Do people not realise that a school system that prohibits all religious view except secular humanism is, since secular humanism addresses the same basic questions as any other religion, in fact, promoting the equivalent of a religious system?

I have no problem with the Gideons handing out Bibles at a school so long as other religious groups are granted the same right.

Students need to learn that there are many different religions in America and the world. A person’s basic beliefs, even if they are atheistic, form the foundation for their perceiving and interacting with every other idea in life. If we started teaching our children to understand and respect the beliefs of others then perhaps we would have fewer religious squabbles.

I agree with the idea of donating the books to the school library ( we call it a media center) and having worked in my school’s media center I can tell you it really helps some kids to have access to all texts on beliefs. One girl checked out two bibles and two books on pagan beliefs. But all in all it is up to the person on what they should believe although peer pressure has a hugh hand in it

I applaud the mother for making a stand with the school. When my daughter was going to school in Connecticut and her teacher was trying to teach about all the different ways to celebrate winter IE: Christmas, Yule, ect. The teacher did mix up a couple things up. They held a winter party and showed off their holiday crafts that represented the different ways to celebrate the holidays. While I walked around my daughter’s class room I noticed the mistakes and pointed it out to my daughter that was incorrect. It was funny to see a “Harry Potter” movie poster on the wall as well, being we were in the catholic belt of Connecticut.

I was proud to see the teacher trying to teach about various ways to celebrate the winter holidays but would like to see it done correctly. We went home and I talked to my daughter about the mistakes the teacher made. She was full of questions and I answered as best as I could. I then went online and looked up a children’s book of world religions and bought it for my daughter. She loved the book and had a ton more questions that we talked about.

My daughter still hasn’t made up her mind about what religion she will follow and I support her decision on waiting to learn more first then make up her mind. I also will take my daughter to whatever religious function if she so desires. Religion is a very private matter and regardless which path she may choose I will support her choice.

I have always been very open with my daughter about there being other religions and if I don’t know the answer to her questions I say I don’t know and we look it up. I try to teach tolerance to my daughter and hope that she can pass it along to her friends.

We can only succeed in getting tolerance if we start with those around us and our children. If we want to make a positive change in this world now we need to start with ourselves and our children.

I applaud this Mom for exposing the double standard. It seems by the comments made that this happens a lot in one way or another and the best method to get religion out of your own school is to ask for space for your own meeting or to hand out material on your religion so they will ‘re-think’ policy. This effectively works because if they deny you but continue to allow other religious materials it could easily he brought to court in a separation of church and state suit.
I am pregnant and would like to raise my children as explorers of religions and spirituality without forcing a path on them. I am thankful I live in VT where people are slightly more open to variation from the ‘standard’.

I am from North Carolina and while I was attending the public middle school here I began exploring different religions because I was forced to attend Bible class at my school and a lot of it didn’t sit right with me. I now consider myself a Pagan, but back then I just had a couple books I was looking at. There was an up roar at my school after some girls, who always wanted to put me down, because I didn’t follow the crowd. Well, they began spouted this nonsense that I had put curses on them because they saw what I was reading one day. It was like experiencing the Salem witch trails in the early 90′s. I was suspended and threaten with expulsion if I returned to school property with my books, all because some prissy girls didn’t like me. I never even spoke to them and I would never try to harm anyone, but in the eyes of the school officials I was at fault because I was interested in something they didn’t understand. When I returned to school I was then forced to sit in Bible class listening to the sins of witchcraft. For those you wondering about parental involvement, I was raised with my dad and he was more worried about it getting back to his job than what I was going through. I never did or will degrade other people’s faiths, but it amazes me that after all this time NC school system is still scared of learning something new. Children should be blessed with knowledge on all religions and allowed to make their own choices. I have a daughter now and I will not be enrolling her in school down here. I will be homeschooling. I don’t want her persecuted for whatever she may choose for herself. When there is so little compassion in this world it shouldn’t matter who we believe in, just that we believe in something. By the way for those who are completely surprised by the school’s action just let me say, “Welcome to the bible belt.”

I have taught. Here is the solution. It is so simple that it is over looked. A letter sent home to parents.

Dear Parents;
The Gideons have graciously donated copies of their bible to our school system as gifts for our students.

Please sign the permission slip below and confirm with your child’s homeroom teacher that you did sign it by date. No child will be given the test without it.

This is not a part of our curriculm , required or elective.

Sincerely,

I M Principal

Trix Public School system

In response to the comment,
“Wht do some people need to make such a stink- It was Her childs choice- He was not forced into taking that Bible. Shouldn’t she and her child be studying All religious beliefs ? I think some pagans push for an audience as do many Christians and – that is why so many have such a bad name”
By “Tina”

What if your daughter chose to have sex with the principal? What if she chose to spark up a doobie with the janitor? You seem to be misinformed about what children should and should not be responsible for… Yes, my examples are illegal. Oh, wait.. So is religion in public schools….

This is what secularism is about. It’s about EQUALITY, not “gideon nonsense and NO other nonsense at all.” I’m not a pagan, by the way. But I do care about other’s rights. How about you?