A North Carolina mom has complained after her son was handed a Bible in public school, and school officials don't seem to understand what the problem is. Ginger Strivelli, who happens to be Pagan, says her fifth-grade son and his classmates were invited to leave their classroom to go down to the school office and get a free Bible. The Bibles were donated by the Gideons.
When Strivelli complained to the principal, Jackie Byerly, about the sheer inappropriateness of this, Byerly told her that the Bibles were not just handed out, but that students were given a choice as to whether they took them or not.
Strivelli said her son's teacher announced that students could leave go get a Bible from the school's main office. She says that once everyone else left, her son did too - and after all, it was a chance to get out of class for a while. Strivelli said her complaint is not an attack on Christianity. "I would be just as angry if it had been Jewish, Hindu, Pagan or Muslim," she said.
Of note, Jackie Byerly said, ""If another group wishes to do the same, I plan on handling that the same way as I have handled this." I very very much would like to see her response when a Pagan group shows up with a box of free literature for students, or the local imam comes cruising in with some nice new copies of the Quran.
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When Strivelli complained to the principal, Jackie Byerly, about the sheer inappropriateness of this, Byerly told her that the Bibles were not just handed out, but that students were given a choice as to whether they took them or not.
Strivelli said her son's teacher announced that students could leave go get a Bible from the school's main office. She says that once everyone else left, her son did too - and after all, it was a chance to get out of class for a while. Strivelli said her complaint is not an attack on Christianity. "I would be just as angry if it had been Jewish, Hindu, Pagan or Muslim," she said.
Of note, Jackie Byerly said, ""If another group wishes to do the same, I plan on handling that the same way as I have handled this." I very very much would like to see her response when a Pagan group shows up with a box of free literature for students, or the local imam comes cruising in with some nice new copies of the Quran.
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The same thing happened to me in 5th grade. I was a Christian then so it didn’t bother me, but it is innapropirate. I live in Alabama, so, as you can imagine this crap happens all the time. I just brush it off. We should stop! If we showed up with one of Mama Silver’s books orWitchcraft Today, they would have a heart attack! I go to a school that I, thankfully can be very open about my faith. However, one of my teachers, who is Pagan, is very withheld on (non genderspecific possessive pronoun) faith.
The Bible as well as other religious texts should be in the school library for educational purposes. But yeah to hand them out on school property doing the school day is unacceptable.
When I was in elementary school, at least once a year there’d be a person waiting at the bus stop at school handing out New Testaments to everyone as they got on the bus. I grew up in a town that was 100% Christian so this never caused any problems. I didn’t even know there were other religions until maybe middle school so I didn’t think anything of it either. Now I’m a Pagan in my mid 20s and working at a State College campus. One morning walking into work two men were waiting outside the door doing the same thing. I just accepted the book and wished them a good day then discarded it latter. Ever since, though, I’ve wondered what I could’ve done instead. I didn’t have time for a discussion before work. Plus, I’m a bibliophile and my first instinct is always to accept a free book! It would be nice to see some examples of polite ways to handle situations like this.
Whenever I am accosted by such practices, I say “No thank you” and continue on my merry way wishing them bright blessings.
Religious material was always handed out at every school I ever attended in the 80’s. Even in SoCal where I graduated high school.
Religious material including copies of the New Testament are still handed out in our school system in Texas, too. Probably always will be.
Separation of church and state means very little in the grand scheme of things because we will always have this going on, and no one is going to do a damned thing about it. The Fed. doesn’t give a rat’s rear. Until they start Federally prosecuting for this offense, it’s never going to go away, so the best thing we all can do is call the districts’ bluff.
Go out and procure about 150 copies of something pagan and take it to the school and tell them you want to hand it out. They’ll back peddle like hell. I guarantee it.
Here’s how our district handled this:
The “Good News Club” is very popular, and active in our area, so they came to the school. The school sent a note home with the kids, and made an announcement in classrooms that there would be meetings after school if anyone wanted to attend that would include Bible study. Anyone that wanted to receive a free Bible and participate in the club needed parents permission, and their own transportation home. As parents, we signed the permission slip saying whether our children had permission to participate in the club after school. Good News Club reps were not allowed to speak to the children during school hours, and not without specific permission from parents.
Beckatha
So, how would you like a book that contains incest, rape, murder, torture, genocide, and self-castration among other things, all in great detail, handed out to your child without your knowledge by their school… but are asked for permission by the same school to watch a PG movie?
That’s ridiculous, and honestly the argument can be made without even bringing religion into it.
Back in the mid 70s I was attending a small college located in a very conservative rural area. One day the Gideons came calling with a person handing out bibles at every door. As I entered the building a bible was held out to me, I politely declined and the guy seemed shocked. He re-offered the bible proclaiming that I really needed it, but I politely declined again and walked on. Frankly, I wasn’t happy at being hustled by a religious pitchman.
It’s possible that I was the only person who didn’t take a bible that day, but when I got to the commons it was obvious that few really wanted them as the books were left scattered on the tables when the students went to class.
At the end of the school day, I walked through the commons on the way to my car. A large amount of the bibles were still scattered on the tables, abandoned.
I wondered what the Gideons would have thought if those who didn’t want a bible in the first place hadn’t taken one. I believe they would have left with a lot of bibles still in the packing boxes.
I don’t believe that there were many Pagans in attendance at that college back then. In fact, I’m sure that the majority would have claimed to be Christian and yet a lot of bibles were left behind. So the morale here is that no one likes someone else’s take on religion pushed upon them. In my opinion, it’s a morale that the very religious never seem to grasp.
Rob
Handing out religious material, any religious material, at a publicly funded school is extremely inappropriate. If it had happened at an after-school religious meeting, then fine, but from the principles office? And during school hours?
I can imagine the uproar if a Muslim or Pagan organization gave free literature to the school to be distributed to the students. However, Christians feel it is just fine to spread the “Word” where ever and whenever they feel like it.
Perhaps the parents should make sure that Scott Cunningham’s book about the truth abouyt witchcraft should be distributed to students during school hours and be the principle. Find out if a double standard crops up.
Otherwise, contact the ACLU.
I see this is the problem of any country. In my own it’s considered to be normal, to handle out Christian literature even in the streets, carry it to the offices and wherever else you go. Anyway, even if I wasn’t Pagan, I don’t like the idea of speculation of the God’s name. This is inappropriate.
I don’t exactly see what the problem is. Are we frightened of such texts? Do we see alternative path texts as threatening, diminishing our own beliefs, afraid that our children will grow up to actually ask questions? Spiritual belief is very personal – having said that, Mam & Dad know much better what is good for their children than school does. Accept that there are many mansions and encourage your children to ask questions. School – you are not mandated to teach such things – mind your own business.
Waltree
XXX
It was inappropriate. It is hard to imagine them doing that in NY!
So much in the South is assumed regarding religious beliefs. There are Christian displays everywhere, and churches in every conceivable type of building from store-fronts to tractor trailers. Love the weather, dislike the overt displays and assumptions.
I also thank the person who is handing the Christian info out and say that I am not interested in whatever is being offered. I am hoping that the ‘Thank You’ shows that I am being polite.
I do object to the Bibles being handed out at school to the younger kids. They have probably not made a decision about religion other than the one their parent(s) espouse. High school may be a more appropriate time — altho if the Bible is handed out, that opens the door for any other group such as Mormon, Catholic, Judiasm, etc.
Does anyone know of the legal right to pass out the bibles? I was thinking about the ‘division of church and state’
I lived in Utah for quite a while and was married to a Mormon. The Mormon missionaries came by often and sometimes didn’t know when to stop trying to convert me. They asked me how I would feel when I got to heaven and everyone was Mormon — my answer, is a nice tone of voice was ‘How would you react when you found out that everyone was Methodist (or Catholic or Baptist, etc?’
I don’t want anyone telling me that I ‘must’ be a certain religion. Handing out bibles in primary and middle school is pushing things, to say the least. Child that age don’t usually know enough to make a decision about religion.
By the way, I am really frustrated about all of the Mormon ads on this site — I feel pushed — but maybe that’s a reaction similar to the issues I had in Utah. Do you know if any other faiths have asked to place an ad?
I say we each send a copy of Scott Cunningham’s Wicca: A Guide for the Solitary Practitioner to the school and see how true Principal Byerly is to her word.
I don’t know why she should be so upset. She should be teaching her child all the religions so that they have the opportunity to choose the religion that they want to follow for themselves.
Stop looking for things to be outraged about. The teacher was right about them being given a choice. I am Pagan, but give other people/religions the respect that I would like.
I know its a matter of opinion but to me, a pentacle on the final resting place of a war hero is a big deal. As the saying goes: choose your battles.
When I attended Elementary school, we frequently had groups of people handing out mini books, they were usually Psalms, at least that was one of the books for the 3 book religions. Presently, if anyone is interested, I keep on my desk pamphlets from my local Pagan Pride Day talking about paganism and Wicca. I also have on my desk the book “When Someone You Love Is Wiccan” by Carl McColman just in case someone is curious or doesn’t understand. I will not just hand them out arbitrarialy.
I know that it would be interesting to see how the principal reacts to Pagan literature being solicited at the school; but given the fact that Pagan religions do not proselytize, it would terribly inappropriate on our part. Of course, this is not to say that it’s not wrong when Christian’s do this. It’s wrong in a legal way–religiously they are doing the right thing. Their faith asks them to “spread the word”, our faith, Paganism, does not.
I don’t see what the problem is. The students were given the choice whether to take the bible or not, it’s their own decision. If it was given as compulsary it would be a different issue, but its not. What happened to free will?
I think that freedom of information is very important in the public arena, including school, and opens up avenues of exploration and conversation, otherwise known as learning…”banning” books leads to “burning” books! I do not believe that free choice to receive literature is solicitation. Let’s not go there. Blessings to all.
This exact thing happened at my daughter’s middle school a couple of weeks ago. The Gideon’s were standing on the sidewalk in front of the school. When my husband went into the principal’s office to complain, he was told the Gideon’s were not on school property so they couldn’t do anything about it. We later saw kids coming out of the school with the little orange books in their hands and pockets. This was enough proof for me that the Gideon’s had been in contact with the children. I completely agree with Patti on this matter. It’s not the fact that it’s the Bible or Christians who are handing out religious material. It’s the fact that it’s religious material…period. The Constitution states that there is to be a separation between Church and State. That includes public schools. Thank you for speaking out, Patti!
To be honest I would be offended if any religious material, including pagan religious material, were handed out DURING class time. The group that did this simply left the bibles in the office for the kids to choose to take but the school shouldn’t have made it an option during the children’s educational time.
As someone who was a pagan starting in high school I often used my school library to check out information on paganism-it was somewhere I spent every morning in anyway so it was often more convenient than the local public library 20 minutes from home. There was also bibles present. All were available when out of class unless a teacher was bringing a class to the library to check out books for a specific purpose.
Since these weren’t specifically available for a history class (I had a history class where the teacher provided bibles for class only use to the mostly Muslim students so we all could see an example of the book was written) the students shouldn’t have been excused to get them then.
I personally don’t understand what the problem is. I was raised a lutheran, raised my children as catholic because it was their dad’s faith and I had to release my right to raise them in my religion of lutheran in order for both churches to recognize our marriage. As they grew up and asked questions I told them what I knew and gave them books (not just bibles) of the different faiths. When my oldest at 14 said that all the bibles made no sense we both started reading about wicca, and other pagan paths. I made my choice to follow a wiccian path in my own fashion for years. She continued to follow the catholic church but understood where I found my peace and path. Her dad nearly blew a gasket when he found the book I gave her about wicca. When we argued over it all I would say is that; we read the bible, we read other books of faith, we both are just trying to understand where our hearts belong since they don’t seem to belong in your faith. Let her be and let her read. How else will anyone learn without feeling pressured.
That was over 15 yrs ago and now both of my daughters know where my path and heart lies and there is nothing but understanding.
Let the bibles be offered, it’s up to each of us to read them as they were meant to be read, a book. Just like the Quaran and all other religious books, they are all books. The power in them come from the one that reads it.
i was approached by two gentlemen in our local park handing out Christian leaflets and when i politely said no thank you i have my own beliefs they really pushed the subject and told me that god was the only true god and i would not go to heaven if i did not accept him!!! i was very disappointed in there behaviour but still smiled and pointed out that as a wiccan i did not push my beliefs on to them and would greatly appreciate them not forcing there s on to me. i wished them bright blessings and calmly walked away.
i think the only way to deal with it is dignity and understanding they cant really keep forcing it when your being so nice but firm
“Of note, Jackie Byerly said, “”If another group wishes to do the same, I plan on handling that the same way as I have handled this.” I very very much would like to see her response when a Pagan group shows up with a box of free literature for students, or the local imam comes cruising in with some nice new copies of the Quran.”
I also don’t see what the outrage is about. Perhaps the students should have picked-up the bibles on their own time. If it is a matter of perceived bias, as indicated in the statement above, perhaps “someone” should drop off the information. But I’ve often found that everyone wants “someone” to act.
While I do not agree with Bibles being handed out during instructional time, I am not sure there is really anything to be done about it. Any attempt to protest or complain is going to be met with “you just hate Christianity”. Additionally, the idea of retailiating by providing Wiccan/Pagan literature goes against one of the 13 tenets of Wicca – No Proselytizing. It is not our job to try to “sell” people on our religion. Christians believe that they are compelled by their God to do exactly that. If we are to truly respect their beliefs, while still following our own, the best we can do is teach our own children what we believe, offer them information on other religions, and let them make the decision for themselves, as we did.
I agree with Lacran. It was highly inappropriate in part because it was done during class, and the fact that if everyone leaves, it ‘outs’ the person who doesn’t leave. It’s difficult to be outed as a kid in a one-religion dominant society. The assumption on the part of the teacher and the school is that the Bibles were more important than their daily education at the school. It is also inappropriate because it’s proselytizing. To those saying it’s no big deal, choose your battles, etc., there are others here saying it happens all over the place especially in the South. If it’s so predominant, then it becomes a bigger issue. It doesn’t matter that the kids had a choice- it’s still proselytism. Anyone handing out anything religious related during school hours, on school grounds is inappropriate and should be illegal in this country. (In my opinion also within a certain radius of the school, but I don’t know the law on this).
Blessings, Let me catch them doing that where I live and they will have my wrath and the Goddesses too!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Her son was given a choice. He did not have to take the Bible. If he just wanted to get out of class he could have thrown the Bible away, or give it to someone else. No one forced her son. The Bibles were provided for those that wanted them, and those that didn’t want them could stay in the classroom.
Separation of church and state is not actually in the constitution. It was brought up in a series of letters by Thomas Jefferson to a minority church who were afraid of being overrun by by the dominant one of the area. I can give references if anyone wants, but I’m not on my home computer right now.
This is something we could work on- to get it codified, rather than have it as a point of general policy.
Okay then…if she claims to handle it the same way if it were another group, someone should challenge that statement.
Anyone, solitary or of a coven live near this school?
Take some literature down there and cheerfully and politely tell them you wish to pass it out to any interested students, and offer a free study course or lecture on paganism after school for those same interested students.
It would be really amusing to see what the outcome of this action would be.
LOL! I say – if it is a choice to make any spiritual practice (literature – available by choice, to bad we couldn’t get some of the fine Scott Cunningham texts there, also. If this an approach, make it well-rounded for expanding all knowledge! – Clearing up misconceptions is a wonderful thing, and knowledge of certainly removes any fear or yammering about – .
I certainly don’t object to any book, (being bibliophilic), – I find it a bit more in all the assumed “connotations” that get piled on the use or become stereotypical” that gets shoved along with it. Reading to enhance one’s personal choice of decision is a wonderful thing – as long as you don’t have someone’s proselytizer view also being part and parcel.
I don’t find the books (any) themselves, to be the culprit.
I agree wholehearedly with Swedishfairy. The idea that the kids were given a “choice” is ludicrous. How much of a “choice” does a kid have when the teacher is letting them out of class to go pick up a bible? These were 10 year olds, for crying out loud. There’s no choice there but to go along with everyone else.
And as a teacher, this infuriates me! We have kids graduating high school who can’t read or write, yet we take valuable class time to hand out bibles? I don’t understand the priorities there, at all.
I studied the bible in college as a piece of literature(Education/English major); it’s a beautiful book on a number of levels (socio-history, verse, etc.)and agree that it could be kept in the school library along with the writings of other religions, but to hand it out to 5th graders? What the hell were they thinking?
Let me begin by saying I believe it is inappropriate to hand out any religious material of any faith tradition to students while they are on public school property.Public schools are funded by tax dollars, they should be neutral territory.
I do believe that copies of all religious texts should be available in the school library for reference resources only, and be kept among those books that cannot leave the library. If a student wants to explore a copy of the text further, they should do that outside the school library with parental permission.
I’m sure I’m going to be flamed for this, but I believe the point needs to be made that the student in question was a fifth-grader who is 9 or 10 years old. I’m certain that by that age children have been exposed to mainstream religions such as Judaism and Christianity and are aware of at least some of the differences and similarities.*** Taking that into consideration, a child being raised as a Pagan should also be aware of the basics of his/her faith-which should be taught by the parent(s) at home. That training should include a non-confrontational way of what to do if someone were to offer the child materials from other religions-particularly if the parent (s) object to such material being in the child’s possession.***
Ms.Byerly clearly states that her son went to the office after other students so he could get out of class.Kids will be kids, but I’m finding a bit of a disconnect here…is she saying that her child, being raised as a Pagan ( with the implication that he knows the difference between Paganism and Christianity) willingly went to the school office to accept a religious text contradictory to his own faith just so he could get out of class? Did he or did he not know better?
There is a lesson here for both mother and child concerning responsibility and personal ethics.
The matter of separation of Church and State should be addressed by the parent as another matter.
I have no objection to my kids reading the Xtian bible or any other religious book. i do object to people coming into the school to propagandize children. i object to the school condoning it. It’s a pretty sure thing they wouldn’t allow pagans or muslims or jedis to do the same. Many of us were taught that christianity was America’s religion and other religions are “wrong”. My adult children and myself are still struggling to get past that childhood conditioning.
I a comment I made earlier, I inadvertently transposed the name of the school principle with that of the parent. i apologize to Ms.Strivelli.
I’ve been handed bibles by Gideons and Hindu texts by Hare Krishnas. If I am offered any book (religious or otherwise) I don’t want, I merely say “No thank you,” just like I would to anyone peddling handbills or copies of the “Big Issue.”
I personally would like to see religious texts of as many faiths as possible offered at all schools in order to promote greater understanding and tolerance. I believe any faith (other than satanism) is better than no faith. The more information on all religions is shared, the less we all have to worry about.
We have a Bible on our shelves, along with the Koran, the Dao De Jing, the Gita and so forth. Pagan children need to know what people of other faiths believe in, it’s part of basic education.
When I was young my well meaning grandparents sent me Bible-stories-for-kiddies books, which for a little while made an impression on me. My wise father simply gave me a book on the origins of all the major religions, and let me reach my own conclusions.
As some other poster have said, there’s nothing (black) magical about that book, giving it to your kid isn’t going to convert him. Doorstep evangelists often ask me “Have you read the Bible?” and when I say yes, they look blank, clearly wanting to say “Then why aren’t you converted?” Sorry, doesn’t work that way.
I go to NC State University which is a major University here in NC. The exact same thing happens with the Gideons at my University. They stand outside D.H. Hill Library, on either side of the underpasses of the railroad that passes through campus, all through the Brickyard, and and anywhere students tend to “congregate”.
Some of the Gideons are rather militant about handing out their little green bibles. Interesting to note that it is ONLY the New Testament. Is the Old Testament not good enough for them?
I also agree with Thomas Le Min when they try to hand me one I say “No thank you!” One older guy did say to me “Bless you.” I said back to him, “Blessed be, and may the Goddess protect you!” THAT rocked him back on his heels!
Handing out ANY religious paraphernalia should be against the separation of Church and State. All schools and universities are State run institutions and should not have people handing out ANY religious things while the students are in class or going from one class to another. Keep those things in the Churches where I CHOOSE to be, not where I HAVE to be.
Religion should NOT be in public school.that’s what private schooling is for.
Whenever an Adult is allowed to present materials to children at a Public School a permission slip should be provided for parental authorization BEFORE the child is given that material or presentation. If the presentation or materials are not a part of the standard approved curriculum of instruction This SHOULD be true if those materials are Religious or NOT.
A Political candidate should not be allowed to deliver a sermon-esque political speech to students without parental authorization. A representative from BP or EXXON or etc should not be able to present a politically charged we are the eco-friendly oil company presentation or a tobacco company rep or whatever… It doesn’t have to be about the Religious aspect for this to be wrong; Non School District Employees should not be instructing students without a signed consent form Period.
At the University level, if one is not competent enough to sort through or refuse a piece of offered Literature…. well, maybe the University isn’t an appropriate place to be studying. All kinds of Bizzare/inane/strange and also Astute/Wise/Clear ideas and concepts are introduced as a part of the Intellectual History of Humankind; The Bible is a significant part of that History and being completely ignorant of its content is a severe handicap. (Only My Opinion)
“Religion” does NOT belong in the public school setting, period. The principal’s behavior and promise to handle a similar situation the shows that she is inappropriately responsible for the job! Bringing religion onto the campus,especially of the lower grades, is certainly open to suits being filed to protect the rights of families, whether religious or atheist.
I’m not sure what to think on this one. I guess they have a right to give children bibles but I think the school could be more inclusive and balance it out with some other religious activities of other faiths too.
I remember being given a bible in year 7 (I believe that’s 8th grade in America). And tbh I live in a very agnostic/atheist community with lots of not very serious Christians. And all of the books generally got thrown in the back of somebodys cupboard somewhere. I must still have mine but I haven’t got a clue where it is!
But I always found that despite my school not being Christian, they were too involved in that one religion. I constantly wished we would have a rabi come in, or somebody to talk about the Koran, or a Buddhist monk, or a sihk as I am interested to learn more about a variety of religions instead of hearing the same bible stories over and over and over.
So I think if this school wishes to give free information about Christianity to their kids then fine, but a bit of balace would be much more beneficial. The fact is Christianity is a large religion and the school doesn’t want to face Christian parents complaining because of their children learning about Hinduism, paganism, Buddhism, Islam etc etc etc.