When is it Okay to Charge for Services?

To me, $10,000 seems like a lot of money. However, you’re only looking at the income and not the costs.

I know that Ray has dozens of people on his payroll. He also pays for the location, insurance, advertising, etc., etc. Then, he doesn’t give these workshops daily, but perhaps once every few months. In the meantime, he still has to pay his employees and overhead.

It so happens that there are lots of organizations that charge this much or MORE. This workshop was a full week, including food, room, and board. I just read there are some universities charging over $50,000 for one quarter. While that’s ten weeks, it may only consist of nine actual hours of teaching per week. That’s maybe 2 or 3 time the instruction for 5 times the cost.

I don’t know if this makes me a bad person or not, but I don’t see a *real* problem with charging whatever people are willing to pay. If they are paying that much for it, it was worth it to them. If you truly believe you are providing a real service (ie, not committing fraud), charge whatever you want. It might be NICE to do it as cheaply as possible, or for free, but people gotta pay the bills, and maybe they want a trip to the zoo now and then too.

As an artist, I have a similar difficulty. My materials may not cost me very much but my time is valuable.
But somehow I don’t know if that guy’s time and staff are worth that much. even if he only does these retreats quarterly

A few posts down, you quoted a Lakota elder re. the Sedona affair. I believe that he said everything that needed to be said:

“When you do ceremony – you can not have money on your mind… The heart and mind must be connected. When you involve money, it changes the energy of healing. The person wants to get what they paid for; the Spirit Grandfathers will not be there, our way of life is now being exploited! You do more damage then good.”

It would be lovely if everything were like Star Trek and we could just work at whatever thrilled us and in return were provided with everything we needed. Now let’s try to define “need”. And who decides where need ends and luxury begins? And just how much luxury can we allow?Not to mention this flies in the face of capitalism, rugged individualism, pull yourself up by your own bootstrapsism, and all the other isms that run most of the world. We can’t even decide who “deserves” basic health care! We have so far to go I doubt we will ever get there.

I don’t really see a problem with charging for services, so long as its with in means. Since when is it such a bad thing when someone needs a service, you provide it, and you profit from doing your skill.

Saying knowledge should be free is like saying all teachers should wor out of the love of their heart.
Educating is a career, if one can afford to do something and accept only donations, then power to them, but in some cases thats unrealistic.
Should the guy taking you salsa class go unpaid? What about the people that spend their weeks teaching your kids.
Just because it’s spiritual, doesn’t mean it plays to completely different rules!

I don’t see a problem with charging a reasonable amount for time and expense when teaching a class. I don’t mind paying for someone’s time and the cost of the materials. What is reasonable? Look at what is being offered for the price; most people are also upfront about reimbursement for materials.

It would be nice if everything were free, but that’s just not practical.

People do not respect what they get easily or for free. They don’t respect the time and effort of those who give things away easily or for free. That someone offers to teach at all is done ‘out of love and willingness to share’; payment is the way the student shows their investment and their willingness to learn.

An earlier commenter quoted a Lakota elder’s disapproval of the monetary exchange in this matter, but that’s misleading, as Chief Arvol Looking Horse probably isn’t giving away free weekend seminars on Lakota healing rituals. Payment isn’t always about money. Sometimes it’s the exchange of your services or favors. Sometimes it’s a dedication of time and effort–not a weekend retreat, but going to work for and study longterm under someone more knowledgeable.

I don’t have a problem with payment for a service, but I do have a problem with the idea that one can purchase spirituality, especially by spending thousands of dollars and six days misappropriating and bastardizing another culture’s holy rituals, without any relevance or reference at all to where each individually currently stands in their own spiritual journey or what form it’s taken (so long as they’ve bought Ray’s previous product).

I don’t believe that all seekers need to be shaven, dressed in sackcloth and working one-on-one with a master, or that those who offer to teach should not do it to groups or for money. I DO believe that people looking for quick and easy mastery of ‘ancient samurai wisdom’, and men who take half a million dollars to throw folks out in the desert for two days and then under a cheap plastic tarp, have got the wrong idea.

I’m a tarot professional myself, and I see nothing wrong with charging for such servcies. I have studied and prcticed for years, and I have a 2-year blog and a book written about tarot, and I feel I should get something for my work and time.What is WRONG is charging abusive prices. I try to keep mine reasonable.

I had this discussion with a friend recently. I said that I felt bad about charging for my spiritual services (psychopomp) or Reiki treatments. I would love to do it without money entering the equation. The old barter system would be nice… give me a chicken and I’ll give you a healing treatment. My friend summed it up quite nicely… in today’s modern society, you usually have to take the money and buy the chicken yourself!

I agree that a charge for services is a fair exchange for one’s knowledge, time, and effort.

I had an awful experience with someone who charged for “workshops” on tarot, chakra, Wicca. Her idea of teaching was reading to us from a ton of pages she printed from various websites. This knowledge didn’t even come from her own head, it was something I could’ve found myself doing google searches. And she charged $300 for 3 hours of this nonsense.

She didn’t even provide handouts of the material she read to us. It was disgusting.

Nonetheless, I do agree that people should charge for their knowledge and time, but be up front and fair about what you are delivering to people and let them decide if they want to spend their money.

Deception is a huge turn-off and it nearly cost me my faith.

As a Native American, when I saw the news, I was sadden. For the lives lost, the psychic damage to others in the lodge, the amount charged, who is this guy? It just smacks of “not doing things right”. Too bad others that wanted the experience had to pay for others not following rules (how the structure is made, the reasons for the sweat).
Compensation is o.k., People can take money, for time, for the travel expenses, for meals. But this amount? One would have felt the psychic ramifications building up after the first check passed hands. Brrr.
A note from my part of the world: I am suspect of anyone using my race’s beliefs to make tons of money from and any tribal member who does this, is looked down on (bring in a lot of people from the outside, charging anything over a sensible amount). There is sharing and then there is giving away our culture.

To me charging for your services, whether they be for a tarot reading, reiki session or hair style is perfectly fair and acceptable.

Unfortunately you will find people charging for services that are less than great..horrible even. I am sure some of you have gone to a new hair stylist, recommended by a friend who swore she was a magician with hair and left feeling like you just wasted your money. It happens and metaphysical services are no different.

My advice is to do research. Before you take that class on Wicca that costs $500 check it out with people who have attended before. Find out if it is worth your hard earned money. If you can’t find someone who has taken the class before, look at their web site or advertising paraphernalia. If that doesn’t work ask them for references. Anyone worth their salt will give you references because hey..they want your money..lol. There is nothing wrong with that. If people can pay $100 for a haircut they can fork over $50 for a reiki session.

To say that people with talents that are more of a metaphysical nature shouldn’t charge money, is like saying people who give hair cuts should do it for free. Yeah, it may not seem important to some but to others it is a willing expense.

As an artist, I frequently come up against people who want something creative done for them, for free. I have in the past, if a project moves me, have offered to things without compensation. In the case of a seminar, I believe that a reasonable fee may be assessed, but if one is doing a work for a person, I feel that charging money sullies the work. A barter might be more in order. A service for a service.

This man had a form of a cult following after his book came out, so he knew he could start making a butt load of money..and the fools that read and believed in that book were crazy enough to pay him money for the retreats..well guess what he was a CON MAN….thats what happens when a idiot writes a BS book and a bunch of fools actually think its true. So very very sad.

Oh, this is a hot discussion! I’ve had it with any instructor who charged for her “classes” and “seminars” and I’ve had it with my friends. I think it is a personal thing.

When I do readings or give instruction, it’s always a donation situation (given afterwards). If the individual doesn’t have any money to donate, that’s fine because I know that some day what I’ve passed on will pass to someone else.

Do I need the money? Of course. But I’m much more concerned about passing on the ability to have a better life than “Bucks in the Bank”. Yes, my husband has a job, okay. But everyone I’ve seen, without exception, who has a set charge for their services has money as well as major personal problems. They seem to look at what they are teaching as lessons, NOT a way of life. Kind of like a Christian Church, “pay now and you’re saved later” type deal. It doesn’t work that way.

As a Witch, a Pagan, we are supposed to understand that this life is just one of many and when fixated on money this can be a big sign that we probably didn’t learn about money in the last life.

Charge for your handicrafts, that’s an acutal product of which you must pay for the materials yourself, BUT readings and classes, I think DONATIONS AFTER the service has been performed (and I’m not talking a set amount donation). If you truly believe in the Universe and the Great Mother Goddess, you will be provided for. It may be less than you think you deserve but provision is there. You may not make a living from being a Witch or Pagan (note: England’s Wookie Witch) but is that what you expect from being a Witch? Is that why you became a Witch or Pagan?

yes I charge for some of my classes. Some are free. most are 20.00 and under. Why? 10% percent goest to the shop for electricity, insurence and rents (some charge up to 75%!)
the rest goes to copies for handouts (20-50 pages), supplies (candles, incense, fabric, stones, charms, oils, herbs, etc) whatever is used during demos and the class project that everyone goes home with.
if someone is truly unable to pay I try to work with them by having them come in and help me get supplies ready or such for a discount.
I have also traded massage, food, other classes and more for classes.
If i have alot of students i may make 10-20.00. I make a donation to the pet shelter and then buy myself dinner
I think time, supplies and such is ok to pay for but if the teacher is getting rich off it- i might think twice before taking a class.

As a psychic who has been berated in the past for charging less than I deserve by those who think that since I have “a gift” I should give my time and energy as “a gift” to them for nothing, I am on my last nerve with this subject. (I’m better now, but I was on my last nerve working in a public pitch in London.)

If I was gifted with great beauty, athletic prowess, an incredible singing voice, technological genius, etc, I would be paid above and beyond any real benefit I gave to society. The excuse would be that in some cases, age will take this gift away — but age can take any gift away, as can burn out as can being worn out with people and their attitudes.

I regret that I have not charged enough in my life for the massive life improvements I have facilitated for people especially with my healing work. I am changing lives and I still have to struggle? Does that make sense? Is that fair? My “gift” has been enhanced through years of study, courses I have taken and paid for, long experience and some hardships that would not have been if I had not been involved in spiritual work.

As for this sweat lodge fiasco — yes people can throw their money away on a pseudo shaman if they want to. But was he even qualified to run a sweat lodge? Obviously not.

If he had not been motivated by sheer greed, he would have broken that mob into groups of ten and had ten separate sweat lodges even if he had to have assistants running them. I read one of his books and was not the least impressed with his spiritual dabbling. I wouldn’t have given Ray a tobacco offering to sit in sweat with him.

The fact that whole thing became a disaster doesn’t surprise me in the least.

Sorry if I sound ____ed off, but this just blows my mind to that degree. I know the real deal and they are living below the poverty line just because they can’t get on Oprah.

I just read through more of the comments and I want to say one more thing.
As it is sad that people like Ray take and bowlderize something like a seat lodge to make money, it is also unfortunate that things like Tarot that easy availability of Tarot and information about it has spawned a whole segment of the population who just hangs out a shingle and starts recruiting for classes they aren’t qualified to teach.
Its even worse in healing. Some people are quick studies and can go through a healing process once and remember the “formula”. I heard a story about this guy who did this and thought that all he had to know was the outward formula. He had no training, no qualifications and went to work on somebody anyway. That person went crazy and had to go to the original practitioner to get sorted out. Thank the gods he was.

I have long had a conflict with the democraticization of occult secrets and methods after seeing stuff like this going on. As for the woman who thought she could charge for a Tarot class and not even know her material, I would like to know how she managed to get anyone to to go to her class?
I hope you got your money back. There ARE legitimate teachers in the world who will give you more than any amount of money can measure, But you have to check them out these days.

I don’t see anything wrong with charging for services, even extremely high prices. It’s not a govt. mandate to have those services nor are they basic necessities unavailable elsewhere– nobody is being forced to buy your services.

Mind you– I don’t think you should expect to get many clients/students/etc. if your charges are higher than warrented. However, there’s nothing wrong with setting a high price, as long as you’re honest about what you are providing for that price, and follow through with providing what you promise.

People who provide services should charge. You pay plumbers, so pay your psychics. HOWEVER, there is another side to this coin you are forgetting about, and that is the people who want the services. People are coming to tarot readers, Reiki practitioners, etc. because they (hopefully) are looking to improve their lives and make positive changes, and need someone to help them do it. As a poor college student, I cannot afford the help I need, or would like to get. Overcharging deprives people of healing. Someone who feels that their life should be better because of all the positive things they’ve done to other people needs to step back. Healing is NOT ABOUT THE HEALER. Spiritual services are all about what the receiver does with them, not the giver. The god complex that some practitioners get is disgusting. They are doing nothing except enabling others to help themselves. I’m studying to be a therapist. When I go into a session with someone, I am doing nothing except giving them the tools to make positive change in their lives. Yes, payment will garner more respect for the help given. Yes, people should absolutely be compensated somehow. But I dislike the system that we have now, and find that people who would charge way too much for the services rendered personally disgusting. I don’t feel that tarot or reiki or something like that is something to make a living off of, because then the true meaning of it is lost in the struggle to get enough money to live. Any spiritual services must be done from a place of love and the divine, not only for the sake of money.

he had no right to charge when he apparently didnt know what the hell he was doing, and besides respectfully one must first earn the right to pour the mini wic’oni (water of life) upon the inyan oyate (the stone people) in creating Inikag’a – by going on the vision quest for four years and four years Sundance. Then you are put through a ceremony to be painted – to recognize that you have now earned that right to take care of someone’s life through purification. They should also be able to understand our sacred language, to be able to understand the messages from the Grandfathers, because they are ancient, they are our spirit ancestors. They walk and teach the values of our culture; in being humble, wise, caring and compassionate. What has happened in the news with the make shift sauna called the sweat lodge is not our ceremonial way of life! in a true sweat their is not usually any fee but gifts of food are sometimes offered to the head as a show of thankfullness and respect in which the food is usually shared at the end of the sweat by the participants.

Instruction in a skill, not in a a state of spirituality, especially if said instruction comes with a text or deck etc, should have a reasonable rate. The service rendered by the practice of that skill, on the other hand, is another issue entirely: Teh old saying was “cross my palms with silver that I may read your fate” is specific; two dimes. that’s it. Enough to indicate an interest and a willingness to sacrifice to gain the knowledge, but not enough to compromise the reader’s focus.
A doctor does charge for services, and can waive that fee based on need, so might another healer. On the other hand, the MD is also trying to pay off a $600k student loan.

I have lived in Sedona for twenty years. There are a lot of people who come here thinking they have the answers and are healers, psychics, wanna be’s, etc.

I don’t think the problem here is about money. James Arthur Ray did not have enough knowledge or wisdom to have a sweat lodge. The people who were in attendance did so of their own free will and literally gave their power away to this man.

When I moved here I spent a great deal of time just walking this sacred land. This is where the depth of knowledge comes from. Another person does not have the answers. I did go to various drumming groups, healers, psychics, etc. but then stopped doing so.

Sedona needed an awakening.

I think it is perfectly ok to charge for your services. People often class tarot readers, healers and the like as having a special gift given by the Infinite or Creator which should be given to others without charge but if these gifted people have to work mundane jobs to survive and live from day to day it is impossible to share their gifts to the public on a large scale. Painters, writers and musicians have gifts from the Creator and they charge. They place a monetary value on their gifts and there is no stigma attached to their choice. Whats the difference – Luna

I charge for energy work and for the shamanic practitioner work that I do. I did pay to learn the energy work. The shamanic work I paid a small amount for an apprenticeship and that started me on my journey of learning in another realm, where my accepted offering is time, commitment, respect, love. I think the payment validates the services. Years ago our services were validated by a culture that provided our shelter, hunted and gathered our food, made out clothes, etc. In that same spirit, I will happily barter for services when I can — I love farm fresh eggs or someone cutting my grass!

As a former Wiccan/Pagan shop owner, my philosophy was always that an exchange of energy needed to occur. The teacher is giving a great deal of energy in preparing and giving a quality class or experience. The energy given back to the teacher, may not take the form of money, but in our culture, it is the most recognized form of energy. Work or service exchanges are also acceptable energy exchanges.