From Kentucky, we have a story about a school trip that included not only a visit to a church, but baptism without parental consent. Michelle Ammons is angry that her sixteen-year-old son went on a trip led by his football coach at Breckinridge County High School. The coach took a group of players to his church, where nearly half of them were baptized. Ammons says her son, Robert Coffey, was "baptized without her knowledge and consent, and she is upset that a public school bus was used to take players to a church service — and that the school district's superintendent was there and did not object."
Coffey, a sophomore, said Coach Scott Mooney told players that the trip would "include only a motivational speaker and a free steak dinner." However, other parents say Mooney told them a revival was planned as well. Breckenridge County Schools superintendent Janet Meeks, attends Mooney's church and witnessed the baptisms. She said, "the trip was proper because attendance was not required, and another coach paid for the gas." She added that parents were not required to sign permission slips, and that they knew the event would include a church service.
Now, maybe it's just me, but where I live, any time a student gets on a school bus for a non-school event, a permission slip has to be on file. Also, I would hope no one would ever try to baptize my child without permission - whether it's my nine year old or my teenager. Finally, it would seem that this presents a bit of a conflict with that whole separation of church and state, if a public school is transpotring kids to a church to attend services and be baptized. I'm not entirely sure that it matters who paid for the gas, if it was a trip organized by the school football coach.
Michelle Ammons says that she feels like her son should wait until he is eighteen to make a decision about which spiritual path he will follow -- she is a Baptist married to a Catholic. Ammons said she has consulted a lawyer but has not made any decisions about what action to take.
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Coffey, a sophomore, said Coach Scott Mooney told players that the trip would "include only a motivational speaker and a free steak dinner." However, other parents say Mooney told them a revival was planned as well. Breckenridge County Schools superintendent Janet Meeks, attends Mooney's church and witnessed the baptisms. She said, "the trip was proper because attendance was not required, and another coach paid for the gas." She added that parents were not required to sign permission slips, and that they knew the event would include a church service.
Now, maybe it's just me, but where I live, any time a student gets on a school bus for a non-school event, a permission slip has to be on file. Also, I would hope no one would ever try to baptize my child without permission - whether it's my nine year old or my teenager. Finally, it would seem that this presents a bit of a conflict with that whole separation of church and state, if a public school is transpotring kids to a church to attend services and be baptized. I'm not entirely sure that it matters who paid for the gas, if it was a trip organized by the school football coach.
Michelle Ammons says that she feels like her son should wait until he is eighteen to make a decision about which spiritual path he will follow -- she is a Baptist married to a Catholic. Ammons said she has consulted a lawyer but has not made any decisions about what action to take.
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Things like this make me thoroughly ill. I have lived in Kentucky all of my life, and this air of “It’s OK if it’s Christian” that we have here is horrible. I could guarantee that that superintendent (who in my opinion should be fired) would have objected whole-heartedly if it were not a Christian service to which the players were invited but were some other religious event. What if a Pagan group had some form of baptism for their own reasons and the students were taken?
The superintendent is an idiot, plain and simple. She says in the article that it was okay because the teenagers were “16 or 17.” Really? They are under parental control until they are 18, and even then they are under the rules of their household until they leave. The teenagers may have volunteered to be baptized (the article didn’t seem to specify), but this was a school-sanctioned function—no matter who paid for it.
This is truly a disgusting misuse of power and popular influence (all of your friends are getting baptized… remember when you were “16 or 17″?). I do hope the responsible individuals are thoroughly reprimanded.
While I feel the boy is old enough to make his own dessision, I really doubt he wasn’t pressured in to doing it. And I agree that a school should not have sponcered such an outing.
My question, did they get that steak dinner? all fun aside, I am glad that it is a Christian ‘Baptist’ mom that this pertains to and that she is upset over this, as she should be. hopefully she sues them and maybe they can stop this sort of thing, if it was a pagan parent then the saving of this kids soul would be the important thing in the matter,since not coming from Christian parents he would never have been told their dogma so it was a good thing ( I am speaking from the Coaches and Christian perspective) and not whether or not it was ethical, and it wasn’t.The school was in the wrong on all counts.
My kid would be home schooled as of the next day.
It seems that the wingnuts are all about “parental rights” when it comes to schools teaching evolution or sex education; but when it comes to baptizing other people’s kids, no problemo.
And I thought I had a problem with my kids school giving them cereal bars and sweets without my permission. Seriously though, how can they really think that this is ok? The decision of which spiritual path to follow is a personal thing. My parents were Catholic so they raised me as a Catholic. After I chose to leave that path I have made my own way, an eclectic mix of celtic/pagan/buddhist. Whatever feels right I use. I don’t force my views on anyone and all I have done with my kids is to bring them up knowing right from wrong and to respect all faiths. When they are old enough to choose for themselves I will support them 100%.
this is exactly what our fore fathers/mothers, where fighting against. this is why we have seperation of church and state. if these kids are even nominally insecure, they have now been given the thought that this religion is the proper religion. school board should be fined, the teachers and superintendents involved fired, and never allowed to teach children or teens again!
Wow so many things wrong with that! Either kids are under the care and supervision of their parents or they aren’t. No permission slips, I am sure no emergency contact and treatment info, and no communication directly from the person in charge of kidnapping these kids. It says if the parents didn’t know there was churchy stuff then obviously the kid hid it. Well so what?!?!?! The coach should have been communicating details. Kids do that, that’s why their parents need to be responsible for them – they show pooor judgement. And wow it IS very different than a coach inviting them to a movie or whatever cause like hello it’s church! A very personal and private issue. Unless the movie is Behind The Green Door or something. Michelle also mentioned they took him on a school bus. Even if someone else pays for the gas that is still a SCHOOL bus. Could they really take one on a personal excursion to the movies? Who is lilbel for what in case of accident? Can I check one out for my next neighborhood picnic? And what a cop-out by the pastor – sometimes 16 years olds look 18 we did the best we could. Ummm, easy solution – hey kid, how old are you? Wow that was difficult. Scuse me while I catch my breath……. And like Owlthena I am glad it was a Baptist parent who objected because you know very well that a Pagan, Atheist, or Muslim would have been horsewhipped for protesting and had the group been invited by a Wiccan to a Harvest Celebration in the fields, heads would be rolling as we speak! Seriously, it was a mass kidnapping with some parental semi-consent and endorsed by the district. Sickos.
Having been raised in a super strict organized religion, I can say, without a doubt, I would be furious. I’m a Pagan now, but I would be emailing the news, raising the roof. We live in a VERY small town.(the kind that only knows ONE way…it’s not the Pagan one….) Never in my life have I been more sure of my faith. I know a few TRUE Christians…..Very few, and I love them dearly, but most feel they can just do as they darn well please. I feel the majority of Christians in this country have a cult mentality when it comes to faith. The schools here are the same way. The best thing I ever did was to pull mine out and home school. I want them to choose, AFTER learning and observing. NOT because some teacher or coach guilted or scared(the whole “fire insurance” thing) them into it. Separation of Church and State seem to be a thing of the past…Fire everyone involved!!!
Entire school district in that area knows that FEDERAL laws were violated. My kids school stresses (Tennessee) that it is a federal law that no permission slips and medical slips signed NO participation. They cant even get on the School buses.I think that only some of these parents were told and some were not because it was a revival and the school and coaches called themselves saving souls, Yes, it is wrong and if my kids were going to be baptised I would want to be there , THat is a special occasion and Family should attend not done on the Sly. I hope that the adults involved understands God does Not approve of such behavior.
Raised a Southern Baptist, but following a different path now.
Well, I was checking out a few Christian/Wiccan sites and came across this forum. I am a Christian, but not because of the Bible, a chuch, or some pastors “vision”. I follow the teachings and the lifestyle of Jesus. I lived as a Wiccan for some time and have been taught by a Wiccan family. I do believe that some of what this coach did was ok such as: paying for the gas and the use of a “taxpayers” vehicle, (with permission from the school I’m sure). However, if he did not notify each parent, he should have some sort of punishment and a public apology to the students and explain how he was wrong for using trickery and should have honest to all those involved including those responsible for the students, the parents. I have an 8 year old and ONLY ONE person should teach him spirituality, ME! Bty, the reason nothing ever happens to people who everyone thinks is in a violation of a “separation of chuch and state” issue is because there isn’t one. If you reread the constitution, it states that “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof”. In other words, it’s not a separation of chuch and state, it’s saying the government cannot basically link itself to a particular religion.
*Always be open minded, use reason, and stand for justice.
I think the person who suggested contacting the newspaper had a good idea… Let the news out and the consequences come without having to start anything your self… But I would also make a formal complaint in writing to the school principal and copy to the schoolboard and the mayor!
I don’t know about schools’ legislations as I am canadian living in Paris, but I am sure that getting some attention through the proper chanels is the best way to go.
Those baptists, slippery aren’t they. I guess deceit is the only way Christian’s get new members. It goes hand and hand I guess. I will ask the elements to grant those involved some understanding.
Niel you stated that there was no violation of church and state bassed upon “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof” and in that aspect you would be correct as that is the FEDERAL Constitution. However, you did not take into account the STATE Constitution which states “No preference shall ever be given by law to any religious sect, society or denomination; nor to any particular creed, mode of worship or system of ecclesiastical polity; nor shall any person be compelled to attend any place of worship, to contribute to the erection or maintenance of any such place, or to the salary or support of any minister of religion; nor shall any man be compelled to send his child to any school to which he may be conscientiously opposed; and the civil rights, privileges or capacities of no person shall be taken away, or in anywise diminished or enlarged, on account of his belief or disbelief of any religious tenet, dogma or teaching. No human authority shall, in any case whatever, control or interfere with the rights of conscience.”
Now call me crazy (and I probably am) but having figures of authority, i.e coaches and the superintendent of the school, taking children to a church seems to me to be a control or interference with the rights of conscience.I can make that statement based simply on the reverence to authority that most people teach their children. It would be wrong in the child’s eyes to disagree with them and not to mention the peer pressure involved.
And lets not even go into the fact that these teachers were removing the children from federal property without the consent of the parents. In the event of an emergency these parents would have no way to get their children and that my friend constitutes as kidnapping. So I would say everything that those teachers did was completely wrong.
Just my two cents
Lupus
Yeah sounds more than a tad deceitful. When I went to school you had to have a permission slip and with that you usually got a letter to show your parents what you’d be doing and if you need a lunch or whatever. This is just highly irregular for a school trip in my eyes. As a practicing Wiccan for 14 years and being forced by my Uncle who is an ordained minister to go to Bible camp every summer and all that all I’ve ever seen is persuasion and deceit in churches I’ve ever attended, except the Anglican church, the rest were Evangelical non denominational types like you see on tv religious channel but that’s another story (has to do with my boyfriend at the time and us being in Amway… need I say more)
It really chaps my hide that Pagans are encourage to respect the rights of parents and their choice of spiritual teaching and participation for their child, so as to avoid being sued. But when it comes to {these certain} Christians, they don’t even consider anyone’s rights but their own. Hmmm… what if a Wiccan teacher initiated a group of athletes during a field trip? That would be unthinkable, right? It’s no different in my opinion, except that the culture’s acceptance of Christianity as righteous and wholesome. Humbug!
Wonder what would happen if we initiated children into the craft without parental permission? (I would never, but I’m just sayin’…)
She can not protect her son from outside influences and actions, from well meaning people. She can try to instill him with truth and knowledge, and preperation for the things that he will be faced with in life. She can communicate with him as best that she can, what her truth is, and prepare him to learn and grow on his own, until he is able to make qualified decisions. Being Baptised is not the end of any world. I was Baptised as a child and remained a student of truth for 60 plus years and I have been able to survive and and continue to learn and grow Spiritually. He is 16 years old. He will be faced with a lot of worse things. That was probably a neccesary step in his Spiritual evolution. It sounds like his Mother could possibly be a good influence on him in his quest for truth. ??
You have to keep in mind that this is Kentucky, where we also have a football coach currently on trial for the death of one of his players. Not suggesting that the two are connected, but we seem to have a problem with education personnel in this state who have no common sense — nor appreciation for the law.
Unbelievable trickery…it is this very sort of behavior that makes some Christians look like cult members. This is akin to kidnapping. Whether the child chose to be baptized or not is irrelevant, the football coach abused his position, purposely omitted important information about the event, and should be fired along with the ridiculous superintendent. This is why we homeschool.
I am a high school student, and one thing I know is (at least in Iowa) if the field trip is less than 15 miles away our parents don’t need to know. There is something wrong there in my opinion. And also, we have mandatory performances in churches and other religious affiliated places. My mother was pretty irate when she discovered that I had been on a field trip without her permission, especially to someplace with a religious affiliation.
There are even times when my school decides that 20 miles is close enough to 15 miles and so we don’t need a permission slip. People at my school (mostly students) don’t really like that my mom is outspoken enough to stand up for those sorts of things, but I think it’s right!
By the way, don’t you have to make a statement of faith to be baptized? And go through confirmation and all those sorts of bologna?
Hey Drew – preachin’ to the choir (no pun intended…well maybe just a little), I live in South Carolina, the “buckle” of the Baptist Bible Belt (I get a little nervous every time I see a woodpile). And to Ash – Peer pressure is a powerful thing, teenagers do things they normally would not do in order to win the approval of their friends and coaches. I agree with the others who say how would the school react if it was a field trip to a pagan site?
This whole thing is a little puzzling. We have kids passing out retreat bible camps at school (this is considered ok as long as the kids do it) but I wonder how ok it would be if it were a retreat for a solstice celebration…
I agree with everything said. I guess I am lucky, my parents let us decide for our selves which path to take. If they pulled this on my child, believe me everyone would know. This is wrong. I truly believe that it is a personal choice. My daughter has tried many religions, I can only hope she settles down soon.
Just growl and snarl. This hurts and offends and angers me so deeply. So much thinking goes off when the “faith” light goes on.
As a former teacher in both a public and private schools, permission slips are required for ALL trips outside the classroom. It’s a matter of insurance coverage. In my opinion,the coach had an ulterior motive in taking the students to this event and should be sanctioned by the school board. It’s a sad state of affairs when a church needs to lie about the nature of an activity and promise students premiums such as a steak dinner in order to carry out their ‘mission’. This is the type of falsehood and trickery Jesus railed against time and again. It reminds me of the Gandhi quote,” I don’t like your Christians, but I do like your Christ.” There was nothing Christ-like in this action, and according to the beliefs of the faith of these people, they will not go unpunished by their God for this blatant misuse of school resources and behavior in God’s Name. I am a Pagan minister in a UU church, and I am constantly trying to see something good in every faith tradition, but these people make it very hard indeed!
wow, cant believe that this happened but i am one that will put my foot down if they try this with my boyfriends grandson when he is of age, every one no matter who they are have the right to choose what they believe in and i bet that the coach did tell Ammons child what he said the coach told him, and that is not right, he did that because the kid had not chosen his path, when they do some thing wrong they will lie to cover their hineys; i had this happen to me but that was in the 70’s this is the new millennium for crying out loud, what ever happened to freedom of choice… guess that doesn’t matter when it comes to Christianity
Let me get this straight….A Steak dinner if you dont tell your folks and come get baptized? Come on coach! lets get real! This is a tact that a preaditor would use to lure prey! I agree with most of the comments stated. If you have to use trickery to get someone to be a part of your religion…there is something wrong with the picture.
Currently living in North Carolina aka The Bible Belt. I find the religious afffiliations somewhat intense as opposed to “Up North”. I dont care what you dress a pig up in…its still a pig! maybe a well dress pig…but still a pig!
In this case the coach and everyone involved in the wrongdoing should be penalized. Christianity is no excuse for the Law.
BTW…LupusWitch YOU TELL ‘EM!
Student Melissa- to answer your question, yes the baptists do have you go through a lot before you are allowed to be baptisted, yes you have to proclaim your devotion to serve the baptist way. I had to before I was baptisted and the pastor came to my house and questioned me and parents on several subjects before he consented to baptise me. So what was done in Kentucky was very sneaky , Like saving some lost souls or something, very disturbing. I left the church for several personal reasons and am now a happy eclectic pagan witch. But if a person is happy, to each his own, but this was DEFINATELY WRONG, I am hoping someone calls the Baptist Association about this . Let them get punished by their own superiors.
I was raised a Catholic but only because my mother had signed away the right to discuss her religion with her children in order to be married by the Catholic Church (1952 so I don’t know if that still holds). Once I discovered that, I was pretty much done with the Church. I mean, if you can’t stand the scrutiny there’s something fundamentally wrong with your position in the first place.
So. In this case, the con game goes on and the coaches and the school are completely in the wrong. There is no way to morally justify this stupidity and there will be no way to sweep it far enough under the rug for it to go away if the Mom pursues it. I’m less concerned about the separation of Church and State issue than I am in the violation of trust this represents vis a vis the relationship between the coach and the players. This is a case that provides a list of ‘what Not/Never to do’ moments for teachers, coaches, principals and school boards across the country.
In the end, if the Mom talks to her son carefully, I don’t think he will suffer any lasting damage. I do agree with the person who suggested starting to Homeschool the next day, at least to the point of finding some other school for the kid to go to for the rest of the year.
As far as anything irrevocable happening because some minister, who should also be ashamed of himself for participating in this farce, decided to say words over these kids… Naaah. Nothing doing. It takes faith, real spiritual, committed faith, on both the minister’s and the kid’s parts, for there to be any binding commitment to be made. I can’t see that any true minister, any one with a lick of conscience, would be party to baptising a bunch of kids delivered in a yellow school bus.
When I went thru Confirmation as a kid, we had several weeks of classes with the priests leading up to the sacrament. We weren’t dumped on the doorstep of the church, marched thru the ceremony and then bribed with dinner. It just boggles my mind anyone with scruples could allow themselves to be party to this.
I would never understand the need to convert everyone to their one true path! Though I have nothing against Christians and think their message is a noble one, I find it quite disconcerting that there would be no permission slip needed. And as earlier people have said, it does not seem it was forced upon the boys as it was optional.
Having never been baptised, this may be out of line but I don’t believe I have ever heard that baptising puts you in a binding contract. This isn’t supposed to be a contract with the devil! (wink, wink) If you didn’t consent and were baptised and then continued on your merry Pagan (Jewish, Buddist, etc) way, what good does it do? This sort of thing makes these people sound like they are in it just for the points they think they score in Heaven.
I don’t believe anybody has the right to do this type of thing in ANY situation. My Aunt asked it my boys could go stay with her for the summer and I thought they would get alot out of the oportunity so I agreed. My oldest was 11 and his brother was 8. I was flabergasted when upon their arrival at home while unpacking my oldest sons bags I found a video tape that said “Baptism”. I asked him what it was and he played it for me. Come to find out him and his brother both were baptised. They were told that it was something they had to do for her to be more comfortable with them while they were staying in her home, them being so young didn’t understand what it was so they agreed.
I called the church that this took place in and spoke to thier pastor and of course he didn’t know anything about it, but apologized on the churches behalf, they were told that I wanted this for my boys.
In any case I don’t beleive anybody has to right to put a child in this situation until they are old enough to understand the meaning of what they are doing, and DEFINATELY NOT WITHOUT THE PARENTS KNOWLEDGE!
My boys are well grounded now both are self proclaimed “agnostic” They beleive that everybody had thier own god and bible and each god/bible are valid. They do not beleive in any ONE god, they beleive in all of them. My oldest is now 19 and his brother is 16. I hold thier thoughts and feelings valid as they do mine.
As for my Aunt, she swears that is what the boys “ASKED” for and she was only trying to make them happy. Needless to say, I haven’t spoken to her since this all took place nor has she attempted to contact my or my boys….it may be for the best!
I wish this person luck with her emotional battle and will keep her in my thoughts.
Blessed Be!
What if the student was Jewish? I would not want my son baptised without me present. This is a special event in a child’s life and parents should be given the opportunity to be there. But as someone earlier stated, “What happened to the constitutional concern of seperation of church and state?” This situation is a violation of our rights. The superintendent should be fired along with the coach and any other faculty present at this event. Also the church can be up for law suits for performing a religious ceremony on a child. Until a child is 18 everything must be approved by a parent. Even GOD.
Did anyone consider that maybe the kid wanted to go to the revival and maybe he wanted to be baptisted? Or was everyone too busy jumping on the “Christians are bad” bandwagon?
Okay, quite frankly this pisses me off. I am a Pagan, I was raised a Buddhist, and I had something very similar happen to me. My mother sued the school for all it was worth. It’s this sort of underhanded, below-the-table trickery that makes people mad, and it needs to stop. I’m glad a Christian is mad about this, because maybe now the fools will actually listen.
Wow, this is pretty bad. It’s right in the realm of “How dare you!” I personally think that the adults involved should have some sort of legal action taken against them as, for ANY religion, this is extremely intolerable! I was raised as a Christian, though I am now Pagan, and I know what kind of people some of them can be. This is ridiculous and I whole-heartedly disagree with what’s happened here.