Reader Mail: Stop Talking About the Satanists!

Well put Patti! I agree, it’s a tough position but I think we all should support everyone. For me it’s about respect – whether it’s the “big 3″ or something so obscure everyone has a right to believe what they choose to believe.

I agree that sometimes it’s important to stand together, but I have to call you out on this one Patti. I don’t think it was your intent, but the above makes it sound very much like “Well I don’t really like them either, but I accept them because it’s what my values teach.” And while that’s far preferable to the obvious ignorance of the letter-writer, I think you can do better.

By giving the ‘we should stand together’ reason it appears as though you are trying to make an excuse for your support of satanism’s inclusion. As you know, no excuse is needed. Satanism is a valid religion, and falls neatly under the pagan umbrella, right next to Thelema, with it’s emphasis on individual will and Satan as a symbol for choice and liberty. Don’t let our intrepid letter-writer put you on the defensive or imply things you don’t mean.

Theo – you’ve misread me, and I’m not sure if it’s a problem in my delivery

No, I definitely have nothing against the Satanists – in fact, many of their principles and tenets appear (at least to me) to be based on common sense. I simply didnt’ want to tell the original writer “Hey, suck it up, we’re still going to include them when we talk about stuff!”

I do agree with you that Satanism is a valid religion – however, there are some who might argue that it’s not a Pagan religion, because it has roots in Christianity. But that’s neither here nor there – and I thank you, as always, for making me stop and think

To the e-mailer…read up on Satanists. They aren’t about killing bunnies. They are not all that different from many pagan variations.
Start here – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanism
Then read up on LeVey. Interesting man.
Educate yourself. They should be included with the list along with anyone not in the Abrahamic traditions.

Definitely agree. The tendency of some Pagans to throw Satanists under the bus irks me.

Nicely put. I do find it particularly maddening that while the “big 3″ rip us apart for being different, we fight amongst ourselves. Since they do seem to put us together, why should we not be united. Don’t let us turn into them and think that our way is the only right way. I don’t mind being associated with other groups that are fighting for their rights and respect too.
“I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it”.

Satanism has more in common with Wicca and Wicca-like religions than Asatru does, sooo…

What does the writer mean about ‘including Satanist with Wiccan and Pagans?’ I don’t recall that being done here. I don’t recall Patti ever merging any belief or faith together. Maybe I’m reading it wrong? I like it when Satanist are mentioned and the Flying Spaghetti Monster (love that one:)). How am I going to learn anything? I can’t always afford the books.

Let me put it this way. I’m a practicing Wiccan. My husband is a Satanist. We get along famously. He does not going around sacrificing animals or drinking blood or murdering people. In fact, he wouldn’t hurt anyone. He respects my beliefs, I respect his and we try to learn about the each other’s ideas as much as possible. And we present a united front when people ridicule us for our spiritual beliefs, especially the pesky evangelicals who come knocking at our door asking if we’ve been “saved!” haha. Before anyone makes any sort of judgement about Satanists (or pagans for that matter), one should try to learn about what it is they actually believe. For a good overview on what Satanists do believe, I recommend the Church of Satan website. It’s a good summary of their ideals, even though not all Satanists belong to the Church. And yes Patti, I do believe that all of us who are not of the “Big 3″ ought to present a united front. I see far too much bickering going on about which pagan religion is more authentic and which isn’t really a religion. I once had a girl who follows a Norse religion tell me I insulted her and everyone else who follows a “traditional” pagan religion by being Wiccan and calling upon the names of their deities. She also tried to tell me that because Wicca is a “neo-pagan movement created by a crackpot in the 1950’s, it’s not really a religion.” I found this rather sad. I feel a kindred spirit with other pagans, even though I don’t follow exactly the same path they do. Obviously, it’s not always reciprocated and that is just plain sad.

I am a Pagan. I honor Mother Earth and Mother Nature. I am not a Satanist, but I do believe in many of their sayings. I do not honor the Devil of Christianity. Satan, Lucifer, and the Devil are three different beings. The Devil is a Christian invention combining Lucifer and Satan. Until you let go of the teachings of the Christian faith, you will never be free to find your own path. Stand firm for what you believe but do not do so by bashing anothers faith. So Mote It Be.

I absolutely agree with your response to this email.

Like others have already said: To the original emailer – please read up on Satanism. From the sound of this email, it doesn’t seem that you have and by making judgements about them based on what you’ve heard, you aren’t being much better than people who make similar judgments on we Pagans and Witches and what-have-you. It is in this way that we are similar: We tend to be misunderstood by people unwilling to take a few moments out of their lives to educate themselves before making judgments, which is, unfortunately, a lot of society. Not allow yourself to be “one of them” in this way.

Who knows, like me and some others here, you may find a few things you agree with Satanists on. They have their rights as much as anybody else.

I do not think that fighting amongst ourselves is the thing to do. Next thing you know we will be like the Christians and fighting one another.

The only major thing I have to say is that I think your “reader” was brought up in a Judeo-Christian home, and still holds some resentment or even hatred to what he/she was taught was satanism. I also think they are getting Satanic and Satanism confused. I believe that we should have a united front of the New Age. And being as open minded as I am, I can tell everyone here from experience, there isn’t much difference in the way we do things. My wife is Wiccan, although I don’t dedicate myself to one school of thought, I do still consider myself a satanist, and I can participate in private or public wiccan ceremonies (along with other satanists I know) and then turn around and perfrom Satanic Rituals, come the following week I could be practicing Qaballah or going old school druid. The point I am trying to make is, and it has been said before (and we as heathens should know this very well), all ways no matter the path still lead to the same staircase. Us ‘misfits’ should stick together until a true manifestation of the meaning of “freedom of religion” shines through.

I happen to be friends with a Satanist, and there are a variety of Satanist, as i learned from him. As there are Wiccans. He’s a good guy, willing to help, warm smile and very friendly. I will admit i was a bit put off at first when he first told me. However, i made myself get to know him first and his faith, and leave my prejudice upbringing aside. He even directed me to the web site called “joy of satan” to help better understand it. I’m glad i did, While it’s still not a path i walk. I was glad of the experience to learn they are not Evil.

I do not and never will support satanists whatever their tenet!

I am a practicing Wiccan/Witch and I believe that tolerance of ALL faiths should never be doused. I do not agree with Satanism either, however, this does not give me the right to implore this website from demostrating tolerance and talking about ALL differences on ALL levels with an open mind. I am a steadfast practitioner of my craft and I am sure there are a lot of people out in this enormous world who view each and every religion, that is not of thier own, as bad..Tolerance is all I ask for.

Lesley – take a moment and step back and think about what you’ve said here. You’re stating that you’ll never support a specific group, no matter what they believe. Even though, if I had to guess, their beliefs (or what *you* think are their beliefs) are the reason you won’t support them. Its an illogical statement. If you want to research them and still don’t agree with them, that’s your prerogative. But don’t discount them without giving them a chance. Just like most of us have encountered people who think we’re evil because they don’t understand what our faith is really about, Satanists are not what you think they are…

As a voodooist I encounter this sort of “judgement before knowledge” thing all the time. Everytime an animal is found dead in a park some local paper will print “voodoo sacrifice” without even knowing what happened and who caused it. My point is a simple one. All ignorance leads to judging others inappropriately. No one is saying the readers here need to go out and learn each and every path’s underlying mission – just remember that intolerance breeds more intolerance and knowledge + standing up for choice = freedom for all.

Lesley seems to have made a common error, thinking Satanists worship the Christian devil. When some of us took on the title of Witch, we encountered a lot of negativity based on misinformation and fear. It’s the same with Satanists; people presume and don’t take the time to read up and learn what they are all about.

It breaks my heart when a non-Christian discards a faith such as Satanism simply based on the random misinformation Hollywood has put out there. How is that any different from what witches put up with? If you study it and disagree, fine, but at least you made an effort to understand.

Us witches fight the same battle, in trying to take back the meaning of the word to it’s original source – NOT what the Christians want it to mean. To separate and tear us apart only harms ourselves.

I have no problem being lumped in a non-Christian pile with Satanists, just like I have no problem being lumped in with Buddhists, even though arguably they aren’t technically a religion (more a philosophy). Because together we are stronger, louder and push more positive energy into the world than if we bicker alone.

I’m a theistic Satanist which means I actually belive in and worship a deity called Satan although I do not see this deity as evil or in any way who a Christian would see him. I personally believ in the freedom of religion and would fight for someone’s right to belive and worship how they wish. Saying you will stand in support of some religons but not others is playing right into the hands of the religious bigots.

I agree Patti and, quite frankly, I think all the “love and light”, “new-agey” Wiccans and Pagans need to get over their ignorance and supposed fear of Satanists and educate themselves about what Satanism is really all about before going on these little rants about not wanting to be associated with Satanists. There is a whole aspect to Satanism, specifically LaVeyan Satanism, that jives with Wicca (traditional Wicca, not the new-agey, hodge-podge, “do it yourself” stuff) that makes the two look like they could be cousins…maybe cousins twice removed but related for sure.

I think that more unity rather than division is what the minority religions (those not of The Big Three) need and with that comes a need to educate ourselves and each other about those lesser know paths. While I’ve had a few years off from teaching at this point, when I was teaching brand new students in my former coven I was leading, I taught a section specifically on Satanism for the very purpose of keeping people from saying things like this letter writer and instead educating them on the fact that Satanists are not what they think. Every student handed this lesson and assignment freaked out when they got it but walked away feeling much more at peace with the concepts of the various Satanic paths and now able to explain to people WHY they’re Wiccan path was different from the path of a Satanist rather than throw the “I’m not like them” tantrum.

Education truly is the first step to finding unity.

I maybe wrong in todays new wave of things. But I have always been of the understanding that a true Wiccan’s do NOT believe in Satan. Satan is a Christian demonic lord, opposite to their Christ, (everything needs an opposite).

So being a Christian belief, would that not make Satanists a branch off from Christianity?

I have no problems with Satanists, but I believe from what I know, that Humanist would be a more appropriate term. I was under the impression that Paganism was nature-based. I don’t believe Satanism is.

Nicely put. I agree with your Patti. While I can understand the original writers position, I must agree with you fully on your response. When we all stand together as a united front we have a voice that can be heard and we are seen as an entity that is a force to be reckoned with. We ALL have the right to believe and live as we choose. When those of us who are “different” from the mainstream status quo stand together for that cause we present ourselves as equals and an immovable force. Diversity is what makes us individuals but in diversity we can still unite for the good of all.

I would have to agree with the idea of NOT including Satanism with a Pagan/Wiccan site, first of all because Satanism, is a deviant branch off of Christianity, and secondly, and maybe MORE importantly, we as Pagans and Wiccans have fought & suffered FAR TOO LONG to NOT be considered “Devil-Worshippers”….something that as an Initiated Priest of Wicca, I find myself constantly explaining to friends and family who want to know more about Wicca !

As a Wiccan, this is not about what you believe in or what I believe in, but rather showing respect for the rights of others to believe in what they choose. If we demand the right to choose what we believe in, then we must respect the rights of others to believe in what they choose. Constant backbiting and finger pointing at other religions whether they be Christian or Satanist, will do nothing but promote discord. We will truly see peace in our world when we learn tolerance of the beliefs of others. Finger-pointing at Satanists is the same as Christians pointing fingers at Wiccans and Pagans. Can’t you see that you are behaving toward Satanists the same way Christians behave toward us. Set an example for religious tolerance and like a ripple in a pond, the collective consciousness will follow. Respecting the beliefs of others, no matter what they may be, does not mean that we share their beliefs. It simply means that we respect their right to believe as they choose, and claim the same right for ourselves.
“Be the change you wish to see in the world!”
Blessed Be and Namaste,
Teri

I share with you also the meaning of the word, Namaste’:

“I honor the place in you in which the entire Universe dwells,
I honor the place in you which is of love and truth,
of light, and of peace.
When you are in that place in you and I am in that
place in me,
we are one.”

It is better to respect the beliefs of others than to single out groups out of ignorance of what those beliefs actually are…is that not what is done to us as Wiccans already by the masses of ignorance that already exist on the non Pagan fronts? Would the writer not be miffed if a Satanist wrote in and said they are non supportive or uncomfortable around Wiccans? (or any other Pagan path for that matter!) Yes, we must all stick together and support one another…exploring the paths of others is not only enriching and enlightening, but can be beneficial to our own chosen paths as well. It can increase our understanding of the roots of our paths, and you may sometimes even see similarities as well.

There is a saying, although it is wholly christian, that states “Judge not, lest ye be judged.”
Although I have long ago shed the christian faith, I still see that there is a great deal of wisdom to be gained from those words. It’s just too bad that there are so many, Pagan and christian alike, who do not heed these words.
No matter what your path, we are all people…we are all of the same origins, and we share the same earth. We are not so very different really in the grand scheme of things.

wiccans are not the same as satanist.. when u have dead animals on videos like some ugly bands do, then it can be distinguished. Earth based paths as in native american is something enirely different.

Personally, I think that Satanism and Luceferians ARE part of the “big three” as the deity that they worship is one of the Abrahamic Pantheon… no where else does Satan exist, much less is he worshipped.

They may not like it, and the Christians may not like it, but if you really think about it, Satanists are Christians, they worship the Anti-Christ, yes, but he is still part of Chrisitianity and therefore they have no place within Paganism, as Pagan is defined as a non-abrahamaic religion (which Satanism is)

Again, just my personal point of view…

Elise
a Druid in CA

This site is About Paganism/Wicca. Satanists are an offshoot of Christianity. Call Satan Lucifer, Devil, Son of the Morning – whatever you like, he is still a Christian creation and this is a Pagan site ??? Satanists can worship how they will,
but they are not Pagans. Maybe I’m just getting old but the Christian link irks me.

Thank you!!!! Finally someone has spoken up!!! My soul cries out and my heart hurts everytime Satanism is connected to my religion!
And unfortuanately the media reinforces this
ignorance. (Movies, TV, periodacals, newspapers etal)
I am a Witch, not Wiccan. I was a witch for many years before it became legal in 1986, thanks to Laurie Cabot. I do not do things to
people or animals that is harmful, and I only do things for people when asked, or with their knowledge.
Wicca is wonderful in itself. So are the other
Pagan religions. Satan rears his ugly head at the least sign of boredom or apathy. I do not think it wise to teach that he or it does not exist, because non belief makes us vulnerable.

I personally lump “satanism” under the christian umbrella. If you’re going to use their terms you should be inculded me thinks. Everyone should read about satanism’s philosophys though, alot of what i got was simply common sense, dont let people shit on you kinda thing, and I’ve got no problem being associated with the normals of satanism. It’s the freak shows that think they talk to satan and have demons under their bed, or think they’re the living incarnation of an ancient vampiric demonic lord that i have a problem with being associated with!! But every religion has their weirdos, from bible bashers to simply just fruit hippy pagans with no real sense of the world, to those individuals that enjoy jumping on the prettiest looking bandwagon.

Somewhere in the ramble, my point was, let and live let. We all face do-gooders that have superiority complexes. Why shouldnt we, the minorities stand together?

Well said, Patti!

i agree that everyone should have the freedom to practice what ever they choose, however in my opinion paganism is an umbrella term for religions that are polytheistic meaning several deities, Satanism is not a polytheistic religion they believe in one god (Lucifer) and the deceiver of man kind (god). they don’t belong in the same category as pagans because the structure of their belief system is not the same. I’m not discounting there right as individuals to choose who or what they choose to worship and as a minority religion i have there backs but they should not fall under the umbrella term of paganism, they just don’t fit.

Damn strait Patty!I agree with you 100%.To each their own I say.We on the outskirts of theology should stick together.Also make A point of researching paths such as the Left Hand Path before passing judgment.
Blessed Be
~Ray~

You know, I really didn’t have an issue with Satanists before I actually did the recommended research.

The church de la S is pretty silly. It’s all about ego, vengeance (grow up, already) and feeling teenage angst.

To wit, from their site:
“My worst enemies are those who presume me to be harmless. They cannot imagine how much I resent and disdain them, or just how great a threat they would face if I could get at them. Everything in their behavior speaks of insult and presumptuousness, and for now it is all I can do to make constructive use of my anger toward them. At this time, I just make a list of them and keep a watch on. Some day, with the help of time, space, and circumstance, I will be able to humiliate them properly – not in a manner they would enjoy, but in a style calculated to make them wish that they had never been born.” – Anton Szandor LaVey

Now, tell me again how these folks, being so caring, compassionate and playing well with others, should be under this banner? Come on, y’all, I’m all about acceptance and coming together but these guys just aren’t.

I wish them no ill will, and won’t dwell on this in the future, but it’s time that we take a real look at ideals vs reality.

LeVey and others put out some good books to read, it doesn’t mean you have to change your religion, it just means she can talk about who ever she wants to, think about it, it is her BOARD on About and if you don’t really like it you can stop coming around on here. Everyone has opinons on any religion including Satanists. I basically think its what you choose to do with whatever path you choose and stop aurging who is what and who you don’t like ITS NOT UP TO you to stop talking about it. Its there in plain site! And I’m Wiccan and have been since I was born.

Imagine for a minute……..

Imagine the results if more people in the world realized the simple fact that there are over 11,000 religions in the world and that it is impossible with our present knowledge to find out which is the “true” one. An inevitable corollary to this belief would be that they would develop a degree of doubt that their religion is the only “true” one. People might be less inclined to oppress, discriminate against, murder or commit mass murder and genocide against people of other faiths such as has happened during the past decade in Northern Ireland, Bosnia, Kosovo, Macedonia, Cyprus, Nigeria, Sudan, Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan, India, Sri Lanka, Philippines, Indonesia, the U.S. etc.

Imagine the results if more people accepted their religion as the best faith for them, but at the same time recognized that there are other religions which teach about other deities, other systems of morality, other religious practices, etc. Yet almost all of them motivate people to lead better lives. There might be fewer people willing to defend their particular religion by oppressing or killing followers of other religions and spiritual paths.

I believe this originated from http://www.religioustolerance.org, I placed it on my blog many moons ago, and thought it might fit this topic…
blessed be

I agree with the earlier comment that suggested tolerance is the key. I have always felt as though the spirit of many earth-based religions included tolerance as basic and necessary. I hope that I conduct myself in this way, tolerant and non-judgemental, especially regarding something of which I admittedly have limited knowledge. The judgemental attitudes I encountered in the Christian churches is one of the main things that drove me away and led me down another path.

I think the individual who wrote in is doing the same thing so many complain about Christians doing, discriminating. Part of Wicca is to let others believe as they choose and not to judge them or ostracize their beliefs. Isn’t Wicca supposed to be a religion of tolerance? The reader, as Patti said, is likely misinformed about Satanist. Satanism isn’t devil worship necessarily, especially when it comes to LeVey Satanism. They follow a similar belief to some Wiccans as they believe in an energy current in the universe that is assigned a name. They just have a different mindset when it comes to the magical applications of their path.

Well, at least Satanists you can take seriously! The Fluffbunnies are a whole different joke all by themselves.

After all, who REALLY takes Wiccans seriously, anyway? Starlight Moonhumper is the Most Blessd’ of the Goddess, don’tcha know, and oh so powerful to boot. Her aura is purer than yours, so there.
And as for male “Wiccans”, is there a single gonad between them? They all without distinction fade into the background as soon as Her Most Blessedness waves her Magic Wand.

I love to take the mickey out of Wiccans. They soooooooo deserve it! ROTFL!!!!!!!!!!

I agree stop lumping everything you don’t understand under one umbrella.

Unfortunately, that person that believes in the rule of Harming None but doesn’t want to be associated with Satanists because of their connotation *is* doing harm to people. By not stopping to educate her/himself and just condemning Satanists to being something that she/he has heard they are, she/he is treating them no better than Pagans/Wiccans/etc polytheistic faiths are treated by the majority of Christians that are uneducated and thus extremely judgemental about Paganistic faiths.
CK

Hi!
My daughter and I are solitary witches and my son is a Satanist, and while I don’t always agree with his belief system, I’ve read enough to TRY not to judge. I do believe that it’s hard enough to deal with Christians, no matter how well meaning they are. Pagans definately should not discriminate against each other. We can learn from each other instead.
Bright Blessings,
Andrea

Very well put! Albeit the fact that I am Wiccan, I take it upon myself to read up on different religions to observe their practices and whatnot. To combat prejudice or narrowmindedness, one needs knowledge and wisdom.

Rahotep…that was rather rude, dontcha’ think? >__<

I honor the Goddess as my path and am a self proclaimed Celtic farmstead kitchen witch.
Well read and a lover of herstory so I am well aware of the origins of post Dark Age Christianity’s creation of ‘Satan’ as a means of controlling the ignorant masses. Satanists are backslid Christians, they are NOT Wiccan, Pagan, Budhist, Hindu, Jewish, or even Moslem (despite what some Southern Baptist ministers preach!) Yes, that last bit is meant to be FUNNY, cut me some slack, I am in belt buckle of BB afterall.
Donna
A practicing Celtic farmstead kitchen witch

Well said Patti.

Satanists are to Christian for me XD but I respect their belief and think that they too have suffered the missunderstanding of people.

They are not pagan, but for Morrigan’ sake, they are people. Let them be!

Very well said Patti. As a SATANIST who enjoys reading your blog it meant a lot to me to see you stand up for us. As for the person who posted such a hateful comment, I am sorry that you have to live with such a closed mind.

I completely agree with you on this one. There is a huge difference between being accused of being a Satanist from an ignorant friend who associates Satanism with negativity, and our favorite Patti who knows who they are, and supports what they really are.

I need to learn to not write run-on sentences.

I can see where the writer was coming from, in the email, but for whatever reason she’s been misguided. No we can correct that.

Thanks, Patti!!

I agree with you Patti. We ALL need to stand together regardless. I am and eclectic witch and keep an open mind to all beliefs. I have a few friends that are Satanist and I have not burst into flames or any other cr** that people may think happens if you know a Satanist.

Love and Light (with the fluffy goddess)
Joanne
)O(

People are so ignorant! Satanists aren’t Christians! You have to accept Christ as your lord and savior for one thing – and you have to believe in Yahweh as the one true god. You have to live by the ten commandments and does anyone actually realize that a CHRISTian must worship CHRIST??? lol!!!

HERE HERE PATTI!! I’m even surprised that she can say she’s wiccan but be so negative towards this path. As far as I am concerned, once they do harm to none and respect others, then they are all right in my books.

Once ALL religions learn how to support eachother the meaningless stone throwing, arguments, and killing will end. If we, as the “minor” religions, can’t put aside our differences and unite how are we any better off than the “major” religions? All of us Pagans/Wiccans/WHATEVER have more than likely dealt with ignorance and oppression at one point or other on our religious path. Knowing how it feels, what gives any of us the right to inflict that feeling on others? More than anything, and no matter the religion, we were all taught the same thing, “Treat others the way you want to be treated.”