Texas Students Claim Pressure to Take Bibles in School
Tuesday May 6, 2008
Coming close on the heels of a Louisiana case in which judges ruled that it really is in violation of the separation clause to offer public school students Bibles, a group of teens in Plano, Texas, say that they were unfairly pressured and taunted into picking up a Bible in (you guessed it) their public school. District officials allowed the Gideons International to fill and unstaffed table with Bibles in the school hallway, and several Jewish students said they were teased about not taking the Bibles. One said that someone asked him, 'If the Bible touched you, like, will you burn or something?'
Texas has been a hotbed of controversy when it comes to church/state issues, and there have been a number of debates recently about allowing religious groups into public schools.
Texas has been a hotbed of controversy when it comes to church/state issues, and there have been a number of debates recently about allowing religious groups into public schools.
Comments
The Bill of Rights clearly states that church and state are seperated, therefore, cannot be intertwined together forcefully. If you’re being forced to bring a Bible to a public school, you are not required to do so, and are free to bring this up to a court, Supreme Court if you have to.
I live in Texas myself, so I know all about the religious issues, such as the recent one about men wedding young girls in the name of their “religion” Feel free to bring up arguments against my comment if you have any, I might be only 18 but I can provide intellectual arguments if needed.
~Omega~
Omega - you said >
That makes no sense. Please clarify. First you makes a statement about being forced to bring a Bible, the you say you are not required to. ???
The issue here is 1) whether or not the Gideons should even be allowed to leave a table full of Bibles on school grounds, and 2) the evident hazing of Jewish students for not voluntarily taking one, which violates their 1st Amendment rights to practice their faith.
Oops… the quote from Omega didn’t post…
“If you’re being forced to bring a Bible to a public school, you are not required to do so,”
Again, this statement makes no sense and seems to contradict itself. Please clarify what you meant.
Ok, I apologize for the mixture of words.
What I meant to say is
If a school places pressure or forces you to bring a Bible to school or take one that they provided, or whatever, you do not have to because the Bill of Rights clearly states that church and state must be seperated. So the Bill of Rights defends your right to not bring a Bible to school and whatnot. I have a Government teacher right now (I’m a Senior in High School atm) who would probably be interested in this topic, so I’ll let him know so he could possibly post his thoughts on this, since he is more in-depth than me.
Omega:
Please carefully consider your remarks before airing them. You a serious flaw in your argument.
A careful reading of the Bill of Rights will show that it does not state that the church are state are separate. It states that the government will “make no law respecting the establishment of religion.” Additionally, it also says that it will not make any law “prohibiting the free exercise thereof.” It seems that the Gideons are simply exercising their right to freely express their religion and this act is clearly protected by the Bill of Rights. This act is no different than the wearing of yarmulkes by Jewish children - perhaps some that might have been mentioned in the story - or the wearing of a hijab by a Muslim child. These are all free expressions of religion and are, in fact, protected by the Bill of Rights.
By the way, as this is a hotly contested topic these days, there is no reference to the “separation of church and state” anywhere in any of the founding documents.
Editorial: How is the school placing pressure on these kids? Simply allowing a third-party group to have a table with Bibles is no more pressure than that of being taunted by the popular kids or being pressured to do drugs or dress a certain way to be cool. I could go on. Dealing with pressure is part of growing up. It works to define you. Dare I say it; it is a good thing. How will you know what you stand for if you never have to stand?
My kids attend a public school and I would have no issue with the school if the local synagogue wanted to display a table of Torahs or the local mosque wanted to display a table of Korans as long as the school allowed my church to display Bibles. This may raise the question of distraction to the kids, but it is not an issue of rights. As long as all religions are treated equally in the public square there is no cause for complaint.
Very well then, pickles. Perhaps we can muster together a few hundred copies of Farrars’ A Witches’ Bible for distribution to our young friends in the local public schools.
You’d be fine with that, I’m sure.
Omega, thanks for clarifying what you meant; now that I know what you meant, I agree.
Picklesinmyears - the school administration may not be placing pressure on the students, but apparently the other students are hazing those who choose not to take the free Bibles. The flaw in your logic is that schools are government run, and by allowing Gideons to place the Bibles they are affectively giving the appearance of endorsing a particular religious point of view, which the First Amendment prohibits. Furthermore, since the Jewish students are being hazed for not participating, I would submit that it is the school administration’s duty to protect their rights, and frankly, the best way to do that is to concentrate on academics and not allow any religious or political groups to place their propaganda in the school or on school grounds, which clearly leads to this sort of hazing and discriminatory action.
As for so-called “separation of church and state” it can be argued that the wording of the First Amendment does, indeed, imply this concept by specifically baring the government from establishing a state religion or prohibiting the practice of religion. In other words, the Church’s business is the Church’s business, and the State should stay out of it; however, the state has a duty to make sure that all religions have the same freedoms.
In my opinion, that means that the school board would have to adopt an “all or none” stance. Either they bar the Gideons, et.,al. from distributing Bibles or they allow all religions (even those that may be considered “fringe” or not mainstream) to distribute their literature as well. Can you see where allowing all would create choas and possibly a hostile environment? Better to adopt a “none” stance and avoid the problem; just teach Reading, Writing, History and Math (gods know, we need more of that than anything else - but that’s another topic/rant that deviates from the topic at hand to much to go into detail here).
Picklesinmyyears: You’re right. It’s called the Seperation Clause (Or something like that, I would greatly appreciate it if someone could correct me if needed. I just realized that)
the following is taken directly from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state
“Separation of church and state is a political and legal doctrine that government and religious institutions are to be kept separate and independent from each other.[1] The term most often refers to the combination of two principles: secularity of government and freedom of religious exercise.[2]
The phrase separation of church and state is generally traced to a letter written by Thomas Jefferson in 1802 to the Danbury Baptists, in which he referred to the First Amendment of the United States Constitution as creating a “wall of separation” between church and state. The phrase was then quoted by the United States Supreme Court first in 1878, and then in a series of cases starting in 1947. This led to increased popular and political discussion of the concept.”
So, to be honest and truthful, the term “Separation of Church and State” does not appear in the Constitution. But, as I said in an earlier comment, the 1st Amendment implies it, and Thomas Jefferson (who was one of our most prominent Founding Fathers and the 3rd President of the United States, seems to agree and is credited for introducing the concept.
Well this isnt the first thing lately to pop up about this issue another school district is facing some pressure about a book assignment. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUq2d2OFRkk
This is very typical of what happens in Texas, and being from Texas with 2 kids in school here i can basically tell you that kids of different faiths besides that of christian tend to have to either keep their veiws silent or be willing to put up with the hazing or funny stares and comments, and it only get worse in the smaller towns.
What I have seen here in Texas is that some folks love freedom of religion as long as it’s Christianity (but I suppose it could be like that anywhere). I am not Wiccan but do not follow any particular religion and am raising my children to find what spiritual path (if any) fits for them. For my oldest daughter, her beliefs are mostly pagan (she is still defining herself - she’s young)… she felt uncomfortable with the Gideons Bible distribution… unfortunately because she didn’t take one, other students noticed and it was then discovered that she is not Christian (majority of the students at her school are). After that, several students called her a devil worshipper… how someone could deduce that a person that is not Christian therfore must be a devil worshipper is beyond me… but it does happen. It probably still would have happened even if Gideons had not distributed those bibles (which offended me but not her).
But the main point is that Gideons bible distribution does look like favoritism of the Christian religion. I seriously doubt the majority of parents at my daughters school would tolerate any other religious doctrine or philisophical writings be allowed or exposed to their children… again if its Christian its ok… in their eyes…
Seriously?
no- I mean it- are wiccans really suggesting this is some kind of hatred expressed toward THEM?
Some people are too hyper-sensitive… I was asked the SAME EXACT question by the first Protestant I met- and I was a practicing Catholic at the time! Don’t just assume this is directed to any specific group- it’s universal, and NOT school-sanctioned.
…some of these other groups are exercising their CONSTITUTIONAL freedoms, and posts like this just misinterpret it- somewhat intentionally, if not uninvestigated.
I hate living in Texas. I really do. Most (not all, mind you) of the people here are the most ignorant bigots I’ve ever met. I’ve been told that I’m going to hell more times than I can count. I’ve been told that I should just kill myself and get it over with. My own mother had me exorcised when I was 13 because she found my altar.
That is the pervading attitude around here, and of course, it leaks into the public schools.
I got so sick of it that I eventually dropped out of high school when I was 17, got my GED, and went to college in Austin. At least people there have a more expansive world view.
As far as the article goes, the school is responsible for keeping those kids under control while the kids are in their care. Most (if not all) schools have policies against bullying and violence, so it’s the school’s job to uphold that.
Reading through the posts here it seems that most have missed the point here. There should no bullying allowed at schools for any reason, bibles or no bibles. It is the school’s responsibilty to provide kids with a safe learning environment and if the table of bibles is causing bullying and distraction then it should be removed solely for that reason regardless of the religion. To me that is the biggest factor to keep religion out of schools. There are simply too many different religions in the world and it is a parent’s responsiblity whether to teach religion to their kids or not. Kids have enough peer pressure as it is, they don’t need something else to worry about.
My son came home from PUBLIC school today after being forced to accept a bible from someone that clearly doesn’t understand the Law.
I wonder, it seems so widely accepted to shove christianity down our children’s throats, would those who are doing so find it equally acceptable for Pagans to hand out Pentacles and the Wiccan Rede? If not, why? What is the difference? Oh, right, the difference is, we don’t proselytize to other peoples Children, it’s a matter of Respect.
I fully intend to file a lawsuit against the school for this, Religion has NO Place in Public School.