Public Safety vs. Religious Rights
Thursday January 17, 2008
Okay, first let me say that yes, I do realize there are probably a very limited number of Amish people reading this blog. However, the case of Levi Zook, Jacob Gingerich, and Emanuel Yoder does provide some food for thought. The three men, who are Amish, were recently cited for failure to display an orange triangle and flashing lights on their horse-drawn buggy. The three say that to do so would be "worldly", and thus in conflict with their religious beliefs. The state of Kentucky says they have to comply, or face jail time.
Now, I grew up in central Ohio and I can honestly say there are few things in the world more frightening than cresting a hill at sixty miles an hour and suddenly finding an Amish buggy just ten feet away from your front bumper. On the flip side, they do tend to stay on the side of the rode and they certainly don't speed. However, there have been accidents involving non-Amish drivers hitting buggies, and the results are nearly always tragic. While there are certainly other factors at play in some of these cases -- such as drunk drivers getting behind the wheel of a car -- the fact is that someone in an Amish buggy is in a lot more danger during an impact than someone riding in a Ford Explorer.
So here's the big question, up for discussion. When a public safety issue is at hand, how much freedom of religion should there be? Should the Amish be granted a waiver on the orange triangle and flashing lights, and risk more deaths in the event of impact, or should they be forced to use these items despite the fact that it goes against everything their religion believes? Where do we draw the lines? What are your thoughts on this one?
Now, I grew up in central Ohio and I can honestly say there are few things in the world more frightening than cresting a hill at sixty miles an hour and suddenly finding an Amish buggy just ten feet away from your front bumper. On the flip side, they do tend to stay on the side of the rode and they certainly don't speed. However, there have been accidents involving non-Amish drivers hitting buggies, and the results are nearly always tragic. While there are certainly other factors at play in some of these cases -- such as drunk drivers getting behind the wheel of a car -- the fact is that someone in an Amish buggy is in a lot more danger during an impact than someone riding in a Ford Explorer.
So here's the big question, up for discussion. When a public safety issue is at hand, how much freedom of religion should there be? Should the Amish be granted a waiver on the orange triangle and flashing lights, and risk more deaths in the event of impact, or should they be forced to use these items despite the fact that it goes against everything their religion believes? Where do we draw the lines? What are your thoughts on this one?
Comments
that is puting other peoples lives i danger and gambling with there own lives which is agenst there rules. there god wants his followers to live humbly not to indanger there lives
It seems to me that complying with safety regulations would help save lives, which most faiths see as a good thing. I don’t know much about the Amish religion but surely it encourages its believers to help others; maybe an Amish leader could talk to the men & help them see that following the safety regulation is “godly,” not just “worldly?”
In more general terms, I think that public safety generally takes priority over religious freedoms. Religious beliefs do not entitle one to commit murder; the law ranks above belief in such a case. It seems religious convictions concerning safety regulations & obeying them would fall into that same category; one’s not entitled to commit involuntary manslaughter (or whatever) because of how one interprets one’s beliefs.
many things can be claimed under religious freedoms and rights ,but I would not think that the sacrifice of putting one’s loved ones or themselves in danger of being killed would be allowed under those claims or freedoms! To me that would be like attempting voluntary manslaughter on one self or others.It would also seem that if we have sense enough to belong to any form of religion,that we too should havethe brains enough to make logical choices .
I think a compromise could work in this instance. Waive the triangle because it is just a reflector. But i would suggest candles or lanterns in place of the flashing lights at night. I’m unsure if they allow mirrors but you could have them fashion a triangle out of that to put on their buggies. But to force them to use a technology that goes against their religion just because it’s easier i believe is wrong as long as there is a reasonable substitute that would be accepted by their beliefs.
I traveled a few times to visit a friend in Indiana and the route leads to Amish territory…they don’t seem to have a problem putting it on their buggies. They respected me showing that they are there and I respected them by driving their speed limit. The horse beat me.
There are other Amish who have put those orange triangles on their buggies, for one thing, so i don’t think it’s unreasonable.
I live in Lancaster, OH and an Amish buggy is almost a daily occurance on our highways. We also have posted signs asking drivers to “share the road”, and I haven’t recently seen a buggy without lanterns at dusk and the orange triangle. There have been accidents and some fatalities involving the Amish here,including one which killed a pregnant Amish woman. Because of their feelings on electricity, I don’t think they should have to use flashing lights; the lanterns show up well at night. But I do feel when other lives are at risk, there needs to be laws set and they should have to follow them, regardless if it causes them to be “wordly.”
I live in Lancaster Co. Penna and buggies are the norm around here. They all use the reflective triangle and only a few do not have the blinking lights. We have seen several accidents involving cars/trucks and buggies and usually its the Amish that are hurt or usually killed. I really think if you live in an area that has an Amish population, you just need to remember to take it easy. They stay on the side of the road and if we, the non Amish just slow down and quit Nascar-ing, come to complete stops at stop signs and Pay Attention the lives we save may even be our own, let alone the Amish and their horses.
I certainly do not know enough about the Amish religion to really say anything, however…I will anyway…
I admire the Amish and how stead fast they reamin to their beliefs, I also think there should indeed be a compromise. The lanterns certainly seem reasonable. I agree that the flashers being electric are completely against their religion so the lanterns would work, however the triangle does not seem to be (to me) that offensive. Couldn’t they make one out of a material they agree with?
It seems to me they would want their own safety as well as the safety of the rest of their communities.
Blessed be to all – this is a tough one!!
I appreciate the courts and lawmakers when they try to balance religious values with public safety. This is a genuine case of that conflict, not a hidden agenda on either side.
I personally met and took a class at The Ohio State University from Dr Kenneth Harkness, the engineering professor who invented the SMV signs for use on slow moving vehicles. I am also from NE Ohio and agree that there have been some bad deaths in collisions, but these need not happen if they use SMVs.
By the way some Amish youth do speed and drive too fast for their vehicles and others have a problem with drugs or alcohol. Sad but true…
In this case the courts should require the SMV signs or restrict driving to daytime.
Try saying it’s against your religion to pay income tax and see how far that claim goes. Nonsense.
I never understood how using our worldly roads doesn’t conflict with their convictions. It seems like they make exceptions when they want to. I respect the Amish (it aint easy livin’ that way) but even just using a reflective sign and some lanterns won’t kill you (um…exactly the opposite? it’ll save your life!).
Why can’t they build a path that is separated by a short cement wall for the Amish driver’s. Thay can build bike path’s and walking path’s…why not a path just for the horse’s and buggy’s….now that would make sense. That way both the car’s and buggy’s will be separated.
Everyone has to deal with safety regs on the road. If the Amish think it too worldly to have the required symbol to keeep them and other drivers safe, they can stay OFF public roads.
I think they should post signs for the car drivers. Like we have here in New England, when a road is commonly used by equestrian riders, there’s a sign that lets you know to be wary of them. Why not put up road signs saying caution, amish buggies in use, or something like that.
Wow, this is a dilemma, but not a difficult decision. Simply put, safety should come first and if it means putting a triangle or flashing lights on a buggy, then by all means, do it. It’s a no-brainer. I don’t like the way my motorcycle looks with all its big, hulking turn signals and gigantic, flashing head/taillight, but I wouldn’t dream of removing them not only because it would be illegal, but because they keep me safer while riding with all the larger vehicles on the road. I would think buggy drivers would feel the same.
At the same time, drivers really do need to slow down and pay better attention to DRIVING and less attention to all the distractions that get them into trouble to begin with (radio, cell phones, makeup, etc.). It doesn’t really matter if you live in Amish country or not. Again, a no-brainer.
These Amish men claim to have an issue with “worldly” things. However, they don’t seem to have a problem riding around on “worldly” asphalt. Maybe it’s my headache talking but these guys are short-sited hipicrits.
As some have already stated, the Amish don’t seem to have a problem using our “worldly” paved roads. Maybe someone should point that out to them. Give them a choise. If they want to use the paved roads, they have to have the orange signs and lights for their own safety, if they don’t want the lights, then they need to stay on the paths they make themselves
I think this is a compromise that the Amish need to make, and clearly, some of them agree with this. I think safety is where we draw the line, but when we do ask a religious group to change in the interests of a perceived greater good, we need to be very clear that it really is a matter of safety, health and welfare, or the like. By that I mean considering all issues and hearing all sides. When we were in Paris a couple of summers ago, there was a lot of debate about allowing Muslim girls to wear veils in public schools; I was on the side of the Muslims on that one. No harm was done by them wearing the veil, and it was important to them.
We had a similar issue come up in California about ten years ago when a judge determined the Sikh children could not wear daggers to school. I was firmly with the judge. There is always a bigger, more aggressive child on the playground who can grab things and use them wrongly. I think this is very similar to the situation with the Amish who refuse to use protective items on their buggies; they’re setting up a situation where an accident is more likely than not in many instances. Veils don’t cause injury in public places; daggers and unobtrusive buggies do.
Ammish who use non motorized transportation have for decades been using a battery and light set up in their buggies to make them more visible after dark. Buggies even have ‘brake’ lights!! So, this is something deeper than just lights and a sign! Each ‘church’ among the Amish can say how much or how little technology they wish to include in their life, too. When the Pasteurized Milk Order (PMO) mandated that dairies have running water in them, the women campained to also have a tap in the house, too! And, they got it! Ammish are NOT against technology, but they are very much against technology ruling their life. They are a very, very practical people, too! So, this issue is something much deeper than just about lights and a sign on the buggy!
Personally, I believe that when you use the ‘public’ spaces you have to abide by some basic ‘public’ rules. If you want to run around without lights on private property, so be it. But, once you set foot in the public domain, you have to abide by rules that keep us all safer. More than the orange triangle, slow moving vehicles like buggies need to have a STROBE light similar to that like school bus and mail carriers use.
Donna
If we are going to “force” the Muslim cab drivers in and around Minniapolis, MN to pick up people who may have alcohol in their baggage, etc. then we also need to “force” the Amish to use the reflective triangle and some sort of light. Fair is fair.
I believe that the Amish should comply with public safety rules. After all if they are going to use public streets and highways and don’t use the flashing lights and the orange triangle, that is very dangerous for us the driving public. If I crashed into one of those buggy’s and causing someone’s death, I would be devastated!
I think jail time is ridiculous!!
I don’t see a problem with them using the reflector triangles but I don’t feel that we should push them to do any more than they want to do. And if you live in an area with those buggy’s, why do you drive so fast? Slow down, share the road, that means you too, not just them!! People are so selfish these days, “let’s make everyone do what’s best for me!!”. The whole problem with the world is disrespect and inconsideration for your fellow human beings. They have a right to their beliefs and if you think they are wrong or don’t agree, big deal, so what about what you think. The more we try to make them comply with our laws, the more rights are being taken away from them, just like the ones that are already being taken away from the rest of us. Live and let live, and learn to be more considerate of others, and stop being so selfish!!
I’m from PA (large Amish community in the middle of the state) and while I understand the lights part, I used to see a lot of the orange triangle. Maybe a compromise?
Blinking lights and a triangle won’t make a difference if someone is cresting a hill at 60 miles an hour to find a buggy in front of them. While they are a good idea; when in Amish country motorists need to be more aware. We have deer and elk signs, put up buggy signs. If there are signs site drives for negligence.
As for the Amish using the “worldly” asphalt, most of those roads used to dirt. The non Amish are the ones that paved roads the road the Amish were using. If you haven’t noticed nonpaved roads are becoming endangered.
Perhaps we should take a lesson from the Amish and consider what we are willing to sacrafice in the name of convience. From the sounds of it, it is the Amish’s nieghbors that are unwilling to consider the special needs of those in thier community.
To slam into a buggy (or anything else on the road ) and then claim it’s because they didn’t have an orange square is ridiculous.In the state of Florida to hit the vehicle in front of you is always your fault. End of story. You should obey the speed limit and be the legal amount of car spaces from the next vehicle in front of you. If you are doing as you should you won’t hit anything, orange squares or not.
I work in public safety, so I guess I have a soft spot for safety laws, but the way I see it – the Amish person(s) in the buggy are at a lot more risk than those of us in cars, trucks and SUV’s. So…. If they don’t want to or feel it inappropriate to put a caution triangle on their transportation, they are the ones who are at risk not “us”. It should be their choice since it is their safety. Just my opinion!
Perhaps creating a “buggy” lane, (like the bike lane) would be the answer. Jail time for your religious beliefs is ludicrous. I do believe they should change with the times a bit and help keep them and us safe when we come in contact with the slower vehicle.
It seems to me that the public venue, and its inherent public liabilities, would trump religious freedom in this case, but only because an unmarked black buggy driving around at night on a dark road constitutes a hazard to not only the buggy, but to whatever and whoever hits the buggy.
Someone mentioned the Muslim issue earlier and they are allowing Muslim women and men (?) to get drivers licenses without pictures on them for religious reasons….Then I feel they could make a buggy lane for the Amish since I believe they don’t really travel that far from home in the buggy. If we are going to make some (what I feel to be very important things)changes for one religion then we are going to have to do it for others. We do have bike lanes in many cities afterall.
Seems to me that saftey should be more important here. Besides, our local Amish community in Tennessee doesn’t feel it too “wordly” to shop at the local WalMart, so a thing like a saftey regulation to travel to and from should be abided to.
In Iowa we have “watch for buggy signs” along the roads. How does an orange sign violate their religion? They use many modern items here and are not afraid to shop at Walmart or HyVee or Eat at Hardees. I don’t feel that lanterns on their buggies is out of line. And the roads they are on are maintained with taxes that they do NOT pay and sorry but they didn’t start these roads! Amish in Iowa has just been over the past few decades. If you want to use the public roads then I feel you should except some rules. Yes they are usually along the side of the road. But farm tractors have to have the sign and so does any slow moving vehicle. I just feel they are using their religious beliefs to do as they wish!
I totally understand and respect the Amish POV, however, I also understand the legal aspect of protecting life and limb. I suspect that the issue is with the lights and not the signage, and are within their rights to refuse them on the basis of the 1st amendment. Perhaps there is a way of using reflective materials, like a flag on a bicycle, to make them more visible…
i think the Amish need to have a little more consideration for their fellow man. (and i resent being labeled “The English!”) We may be worldly sinners but we’re still gonna be traumatized if we kill them or ourselves because we can’t see them till it’s too late!
I don’t really have an opinion about whether Amish people should or should not put reflectors and lights on their vehicles, but I do know that people are allowed to send their kids to school without vaccinations if they can somehow show that it conflicts with their religion. That is a “public safety” kind of risk that is permitted by law.
Also, as far as using roads being “worldly”, the Romans invented roads and chariots so I don’t see a conflict with Amish buggies using roads. They can’t help it if the dirt has been paved over. (Then again, the Romans laid stones on their roads and that’s a sort of paving anyway.)
I’m from Ohio also.Every time my family and I go to the “Amish Country”
the vast majority of the buggys do have the safety triangle on the back.
However, very few have the lights.We do have a few Amish families here in SE Ohio and they just catch a ride into town from a non-Amish neighbor.I’m a strong believer in everyone has the right to worship what ever or in any way they deem fit,unless it involves the rights of others.The Amish don’t see any restrictions on using the modern road system.After all, its paved and not a gravel or cobble stone system they use.
I feel that a lot of people, not just the Amish, use religion as an excuse to not do or do things at their conveinence.
If the triangle and lights are against their religion then so should the use of modern paved roads. Even riding in an automobile of any sort should be. Yes, the romans invented “paved” roads but
they are nothing like the smooth paved roads that we have today.
If I remember my scriptures correctly, We were told to “render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s and to god the things that are god’s. So they need to shut up and follow the rules, or got out of the country. Let them see how tolerant the rest of the world is of “difference” that conflicts with the civil rule of law.
I’m not just condemning the Amish alone, all the religions do it and have done it .
Hmmm… if we’re making public safety the priority here, wouldn’t the person riding in the Ford Explorer be having more of a negative impact on the environment and public health than the Amish guy? Just a thought.
That’s the biggest reason why it’s so scary that religion is being brought into our presidential election…. the laws should be unbiased. No religion should be leaned upon to write our laws. Therefore, religion or not, the law is there simply for protection of every individual. Just like how in this state it is illegal to not have any power to a habitable building when there are inhabitants. The amish here are required to use disel powered generators if they’re not happy with ‘electricity’ per-se. Safety is safety, and it’d be the country’s fault for deaths involved with buggies and cars if they DIDN’T try to fix the problem.
I drive through Amish country five days a week going to work. I have only encountered an Amish buggy once in the predawn hours and it had red lights that not only flashed but ran a continuous circle around the back of the buggy. I didn’t notice the SMV because I was too intrigued by the lights and I did see them from quite a distance away. This area is very hilly and curvy and you can’t run at 60 miles per hour, but 50 or 55 is possible and sometimes I do come up on a buggy or wagon when I crest the hill, start down the hill, or go around a curve, which is usually on a hill as well. There are signs for at least six miles through there that inform a driver of buggies on the road. The most dangerous situation I ran into was a buggy going up a steep, deeply shaded extremely curvy hill. A truck coming down flashed its light as a warning, so I was expecting something up ahead. What I found was an open buggy with two little girls and I assume their father going up the hill at a walk. As I said it was deeply shaded and without the truck’s warning I wouldn’t have seen them. I had to come to a complete stop on that hillside and wait until they crested it. There was no triangle. Some have them, some don’t. And there was no room for a separate path. I usually slow down through that area, but I see a lot of others that don’t.
If their concern is genuine then I feel for them, but public safety rules in this case. Besides, I’m not sure that using a modern, paved road created using untold amounts of machinery and chemicals would qualify as an “unworldly” endevor.
I’ve been in Amish areas before and always saw an orange triangle on the backs of the buggies; most Amish seem to be aware of the danger. Of course, these were in Indiana, and I know that different communities have different laws. Still, I think public safety must be a priority and concern (especially for the Amish who are in greater danger in case of an accident).
While I understand that there are some concerns for safety, here is my take on the issue. As far as I know the Amish are rarely on the roads in the evenings when it is dark as buggy’s don’t come standard with headlights, therefore I don’t really see how the sticker or flashing lights would do any good. If you come over a hill during the day guess what you still would not have seen the flashing lights cause it’s daylight outside so you would not have had any advanced warning anyway. Therefore I think they should be allowed to follow their religous preference because I don’t see how the lights or sticker would a benefit to safety.